Turbo questions..

[Pir0]

I'm gonna start planning a turbo build.. might take a long time planning, while i get other things sorted. But I want to plan it all out, costs etc and what setup im gonna be using.

Fanny Mold questions :

How much do the c20get/20get engine's exhaust manifolds usually touch for in the states? What prices?

And what turbo flange is on them? I'm guessing they're the right height on the manifold to strap a turbo onto the manifold. I've seen ones that were too low and got starved from oil?

What turbo's could be used on it?


Other questions:

I'm thinking of running like 7-9psi[9 max] on standard pistons and rods, from a c20ne.
-I've been reading up about a lot of this and have been led to believe anything over 11 is really pushing it, where the strength of the rods is concerned.
-I know the rods from an LET etc will be stronger, but If i use those i'd need to use the LET crank too right? Is there any differences in the LET crank and the C20ne crank[2.0 8v engine] apart from being stronger? Is the bolt pattern for the flywheel different?
-Also, LET pistons are pressed onto the rods i think, correct me if i'm wrong. So how would you remove these, seeing as they've no fully floating gudjon[sp?] pin in them? the c20ne pistons are pressed on too.

Finally. Compression on the NE is roughly around 9.0:1 -> 9.5:1. Would this need lowered further? Putting LET pistons in wouldnt change much if I remember correctly, probably just bring the CR down a little? Would between 9/9.5:1 be safe running 7-9psi?


Tought I'd post this here rather than in aftermarket and high performance seeing as it's not gonna be a really high performance motor. And not a lot will be aftermarket :P Looking around 160-180bhp for the first build. Then maybe reach for 200bhp when i've more experience with this type of thing. The reason I've chose an 8v turbo motor, is because the engines are reasonably cheap over here, they produce between 115 and 130bhp standard depending on which you get. And I know my way about them fairly well.. The heads also take a bit more abuse than the redtop heads etc. So, i think i'll play it safe with one of these until im more experienced.

Thanks fellas,
Paul

[gse_turbo]

start here... CLICK HERE

they use a Garrett T2 flange, you can use a T25, T28 (disco pottato) and related turbos.

[Pir0]

Thanks Garrett, knew you'd be the man who knew about those.

Do you know if I could use my 2.0 8v inlet manifold? What way would that work? Nothing turbo related goes to that Sunbird inlet manifold right?

...Apart from a large boost pipe

[gse_turbo]

Other questions:

I'm thinking of running like 7-9psi[9 max] on standard pistons and rods, from a c20ne.
-...been led to believe anything over 11 is really pushing it, where the strength of the rods is concerned. UNLESS... you use uprated rod bolts. 7-9psi is stock for a GET with standard 8v rods and NO intercooler
-I know the rods from an LET etc will be stronger, but If i use those i'd need to use the LET crank too right? NO they use the same specs
-Is there any differences in the LET crank and the C20ne crank[2.0 8v engine] apart from being stronger? YES AND NO the crank was certain provisions depending on the year it was made but neither is truely stronger.
-Is the bolt pattern for the flywheel different? YES, that really the only difference is that the 8v uses a 6-bolt flywheel and the 16v use an 8-bolt.
-Also, LET pistons are pressed onto the rods i think, correct me if i'm wrong. NO, the 8v's are pressed, the 16v Redtop's are floating. **NOTE AT THE BOTTOM!
-So how would you remove these, seeing as they've no fully floating gudjon[sp?] pin in them? the c20ne pistons are pressed on too. Take it to a shop there is a special press fixture to not damage the piston or rods.

Finally. Compression on the NE is roughly around 9.0:1 -> 9.5:1. Would this need lowered further? Putting LET pistons in wouldnt change much if I remember correctly, probably just bring the CR down a little? Would between 9/9.5:1 be safe running 7-9psi? 9.0:1 is just fine you guys get better fuel than we do anyways and I'm running 9.0:1 in my "T20LET"

[Pir0]

UNLESS... you use uprated rod bolts. 7-9psi is stock for a GET with standard 8v rods and NO intercooler

Using an Intercooler would increase performance, which would pur additional strain on rod bolts right? So if i'm running a FMIC at 7-9psi, it'd be more efficient than the GET at 7-9psi, thus, making more power and making it more potentially damagin to the rods/rod bolts?

NO they use the same specs

So i can put LET rods straight onto my 8v crank? The reason I thought otherwise was because I've never heard of this being done on any 8v turbo over here, and ive heard about this but, from what i've heard the cranks are different.

YES AND NO the crank was certain provisions depending on the year it was made but neither is truely stronger.

Ok, neither are stronger so I would get no benefit from using an LET crank. The cost of LET rods+crank kinda outweighs the value for money, when i could buy aftermarket forged strengthened rods for my 8v.

YES, that really the only difference is that the 8v uses a 6-bolt flywheel and the 16v use an 8-bolt.

That's what i thought, thanks for clearing that up.

NO, the 8v's are pressed, the 16v Redtop's are floating. **NOTE AT THE BOTTOM!

Can LET pistons be pressed onto 8v rods? Would I see much benefit from this concidering the price i'd pay for second hand LET pistons? Or should I stick with my standard c20ne pistons until later when i will go for forged ones.

Take it to a shop there is a special press fixture to not damage the piston or rods.

Ahh ok, so there's no real diy job without potentially damaging them?

9.0:1 is just fine you guys get better fuel than we do anyways and I'm running 9.0:1 in my "T20LET"

First off, can I just ask how you would go about calculating what CR you need on a certain type of fuel with a turbo'd car at a certain psi? [If that matters] I have a calculator for CR but it doesnt tell you what CR you need for certain fuels in a turbo'd motor. Secondly, Would i see much difference using a thicker head gasket like the ones on your shop?

[gse_turbo]

Thanks Garrett, knew you'd be the man who knew about those.

Do you know if I could use my 2.0 8v inlet manifold? What way would that work? Nothing turbo related goes to that Sunbird inlet manifold right?

...Apart from a large boost pipe

are you refereing to the one in the ebay listing? you can use that manifold but double check the throttle size on what you have, it may be bigger that what's used here in the States.

one other thing I would recommed is visit vaux-extreme.com. it's and all 8v site with good members, it's not really busy but they know their stuff, there almost as smart as the guys here

[Pir0]

Yeah I was. It does look rather small in that picture. But anyway, thanks for all the help so far. I'm just trying to get all my marbles in one place so I know what I should be looking for etc.

Ahh thats the site you linked to me a while ago, but it was down at the time. Thanks for giving me the link again, I had lost it before. Not that it matters, they've changed the domain name :P

[gse_turbo]

sorry for the order of the questions and answers, we were posting at the same time

UNLESS... you use uprated rod bolts. 7-9psi is stock for a GET with standard 8v rods and NO intercooler

Using an Intercooler would increase performance, which would pur additional strain on rod bolts right? So if i'm running a FMIC at 7-9psi, it'd be more efficient than the GET at 7-9psi, thus, making more power and making it more potentially damagin to the rods/rod bolts?

actually it would be the oposite, 7psi is 7psi with an intercooler or not. having and intercooler means you will make power more efficiently there fore reducing stress and heat

NO they use the same specs

So i can put LET rods straight onto my 8v crank? The reason I thought otherwise was because I've never heard of this being done on any 8v turbo over here, and ive heard about this but, from what i've heard the cranks are different.[/quote]
there is a good reason that no one's done it and I forgot to add my "**NOTE" explaining why above. it's to do with the pistons, because LET pistons use floating pins and 8v use pressed they two couldn't be used together... UNTIL NOW! I can have Wiseco make a set of 8v pistons with floating pins which has never been done. I'm actually using the crank and block from my GET, the rods from and XE and pistons from Wiseco.

YES AND NO the crank was certain provisions depending on the year it was made but neither is truely stronger.

Ok, neither are stronger so I would get no benefit from using an LET crank. The cost of LET rods+crank kinda outweighs the value for money, when i could buy aftermarket forged strengthened rods for my 8v.[/quote]
the crank you have will sufice, I'd have it polished a bit but there is no reason to buy an LET. as for the rods, the 8v rods are the same as the Ecotec rods and Existence is pushing over 230bhp with no internal mods. basically, go with whatever is cost effective for you 'cause any upgrade will do.

YES, that really the only difference is that the 8v uses a 6-bolt flywheel and the 16v use an 8-bolt.

That's what i thought, thanks for clearing that up.

NO, the 8v's are pressed, the 16v Redtop's are floating. **NOTE AT THE BOTTOM!

Can LET pistons be pressed onto 8v rods? Would I see much benefit from this concidering the price i'd pay for second hand LET pistons? Or should I stick with my standard c20ne pistons until later when i will go for forged ones.[/quote]
this will work, it's pretty much how the Ecotec come now but there is no real benifit. the LET might be forged where the NE are likely not but if you upgrade one you may as well do both together.

Take it to a shop there is a special press fixture to not damage the piston or rods.

Ahh ok, so there's no real diy job without potentially damaging them?

Quite

9.0:1 is just fine you guys get better fuel than we do anyways and I'm running 9.0:1 in my "T20LET"

First off, can I just ask how you would go about calculating what CR you need on a certain type of fuel with a turbo'd car at a certain psi? [If that matters] I have a calculator for CR but it doesnt tell you what CR you need for certain fuels in a turbo'd motor. Secondly, Would i see much difference using a thicker head gasket like the ones on your shop?[/quote]
I can't really comment on the air-fuel ratios or the super techincal data like that, hopefully Chris will step in to help you with that.
one thing I can tell yo uis that with or without a turbo, the higher your compression the more HP you will be able to produce. the only thing you are really fighting is detination/knock. in the past i've built a motor and mixed different octain levels and test with them until the knock went away but that took a ton of effort.
the only time I recommend usind a thicker head gasket is when the head and block are skimmed. you can use a thicker head gasket to lower compression but you change the The Squish Band or "Quench" from the piston sides coming close to the head which focuses the air to center of the piston.

hope I'm getting you the info you are after.

Garrett

[Pir0]

Yeah you really are You've cleared up so many patchy areas I knew a little about, but not enough.

I know about the squishband too. If I'm using a spacer plate/thicker head gasket to lower the CR to 8.5:1 It really wouldnt make THAT much of a difference to the squish band. Idealy I want forged pistons But I don't think I have the money for that right now. Wish i had 300 quid when you done that group buy.. Woulda bought them in an instant.

So. Just a bit of a conclusion from all that m8, the rods will be fine if i upgrade the rod bolts? [the bolts that bolt it to the crank and hold the big end bearings in place?] What about the bit that's pressed in, that holds the piston to the rod? Would that need upgraded? What would you reccommend, a set of 8 arp rod bolts?

When i go about doing this build, I'm gonna be replacing the big end bearings. So, I was thinking, since I'm gonna hafta drop the crank to do that, should I replace to piston rings too? Just to be sure? Don't want any oil getting up around the combustion chamber, or likewise, any petrol getting into the oil.

I just bought an RS Turbo manifold which I will eventually chop up. It's got a t3 flange, and I know a few ppl that sell t3 hybrid turbos. So, that end of thing's almost covered lol

[gse_turbo]

So. Just a bit of a conclusion from all that m8, the rods will be fine if i upgrade the rod bolts? [the bolts that bolt it to the crank and hold the big end bearings in place?]

sure thing, ARP's will help quite a bit, most of the time when you "throw a rod" it's the bolts that give way.

What about the bit that's pressed in, that holds the piston to the rod? Would that need upgraded? What would you reccommend?

nah, the pins'd be fine just keep the pin and rod it's from together. the OE pistons will fail before the pin will.

When i go about doing this build, I'm gonna be replacing the big end bearings. So, I was thinking, since I'm gonna hafta drop the crank to do that, should I replace to piston rings too? Just to be sure? Don't want any oil getting up around the combustion chamber, or likewise, any petrol getting into the oil.

unless there is damage or you are unsure of how the motors been kept there isn't really a need to drop the crank. I would replace the rings for sure, just cheap insurence.

I just bought an RS Turbo manifold which I will eventually chop up. It's got a t3 flange, and I know a few ppl that sell t3 hybrid turbos. So, that end of thing's almost covered lol

so do you have a line on the 8v header flange? if not I've got them available when you'r ready.

can't wait to see what you put together.

Garrett

[exist3nce]

First off, can I just ask how you would go about calculating what CR you need on a certain type of fuel with a turbo'd car at a certain psi? [If that matters] I have a calculator for CR but it doesnt tell you what CR you need for certain fuels in a turbo'd motor.

Looks like you are getting a good start on your research

I think you have asked the million dollar question there. So far as I know there is no way to calculate that precisely, there are too many variables unless someone has already done the setup and testing. Car manufactures put alot of effort into testing exactly that when they release factory turbo cars. Speaking from my motor which is also 9.5CR, its safe at as high as 12psi so long as tuning is done right. I tune mine for around 11.0 - 11.5 at WOT at all boost levels and I also run water/meth injection. So I think you will have to do some trial and error to find the limit.

[Pir0]

If i were to run 12 psi on a standard c20ne, with stanard engine management, which is 9.0:1 - 9.5:1 it would detonate/knock/pink, like a mofo at WOT.

I want to run my car on 95ron fuel. Normal fuel, or, if needs be, 97ron. Super unleaded as we call it. I was just wondering how about calculating what cr is needed to run on 95/97ron fuel at about 7-9psi [11 at most for futreproofing the engine]

[Pir0]

sure thing, ARP's will help quite a bit, most of the time when you "throw a rod" it's the bolts that give way.

Ok, arp's it is.

unless there is damage or you are unsure of how the motors been kept there isn't really a need to drop the crank. I would replace the rings for sure, just cheap insurence.

Well, I'm replacing rod bolts and the big end bearings. Is the crank not needed to be dropped to replace the big end bearings?

so do you have a line on the 8v header flange? if not I've got them available when you'r ready.

I'm trying to get one atm off a guy from the mk2 astra website. He hasnt replied my pm though. He has a large bore and oem bore header flange for an 8v, and is selling both, for 10 quid each O_O So i'm desperate to get both of those off him.

can't wait to see what you put together.

Garrett

Me neither, it'll take me forever though, but i'm in no rush

[exist3nce]

If i were to run 12 psi on a standard c20ne, with stanard engine management, which is 9.0:1 - 9.5:1 it would detonate/knock/pink, like a mofo at WOT.

I want to run my car on 95ron fuel. Normal fuel, or, if needs be, 97ron. Super unleaded as we call it. I was just wondering how about calculating what cr is needed to run on 95/97ron fuel at about 7-9psi [11 at most for futreproofing the engine]

What do you mean with standard engine management? cause you refer to CR as well.. ?

9.0 - 9.5 CR is still perfectly safe IMO. I'm not familiar with your fuel octane rating system, but over here we have 94 octane as the highest one. I use only that, plus as I said, the water/meth injection for further safety. Maybe you should consider that for your build as well if you are worried about detonation - it has a nice cooling effect and allows you to run more boost without knocking.

[Pir0]

Well i'll be running a fair sized intercooler.

And i meant, standard engine management as in standard ecu, fuel rail, fuel pump and air flow meter. I actually edited my post and stuck this bit in before the CR. So i didnt mean they had something in common :Pi didnt mean my engine management has a cr of 9.0:1

We have 95 and 97ron fuels.