Well i finally have the money to build up a turbo setup for my 2.0. The only problem is i need a little help and i have a few questions.
Will i be ok on stock injectors?
What about stock internals?
Will i need a e-manage system?
Is a T3/T4 too big? should i go with another setup?
I already have the following parts: (parts listed with a * are not yet orderd)
-Intercooler
-Piping
-BOV
-Boost Gauge
*Boost controler
*turbo
*WG
*Turbo Timer?
*manifold
Is there anything I am forgeting or i dont need?
Thanks, Dillon
Nubira Turbo Questions!
Moderators: daewoomofo, Moderators Group
Nubira Turbo Questions!
KDM 2.0 Nubira
Re: Nubira Turbo Questions!
Dillon wrote:Well i finally have the money to build up a turbo setup for my 2.0. The only problem is i need a little help and i have a few questions.
Will i be ok on stock injectors?
NO
What about stock internals?
Yes
Will i need a e-manage system?
is best to say a piggyback, yes when using bigger injectors
Is a T3/T4 too big? should i go with another setup?
NO
I already have the following parts: (parts listed with a * are not yet orderd)
-Intercooler
-Piping
-BOV
-Boost Gauge
*Boost controler
*turbo
*WG
*Turbo Timer?
*manifold
Is there anything I am forgeting or i dont need?
Thanks, Dillon
Mitsubishi Eclipse GST 304whp 319tq @22psi w EVO 3 16G Daily Driven
DAEWOO Nubira 2.2L Turbo 217whp 204tq @13psi SOLD
-
PrecisionBoost
- Super Moderator
- Posts: 4437
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:59 am
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
What kind of power are you looking to make?
Reason I ask is that the transmission and clutch are limiting factors here.
If your going with low boost I would consider the idea of using the stock injectors with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.
When you change the injector size you can sometimes have issues tuning the idle to a reasonable air/fuel ratio
Piggy back systems have a limit to how much they can change the injector duty cycle since they are modifying parameters such as the MAP, IAT to make the stock ECU inject more or less fuel.
Adding more fuel is easy.... the piggyback unit simply holds the injector on for a longer duration..... making it shorter (as you would if you had larger injectors) is a harder thing.... it needs to change the MAP to make factory ECU decrease the injector pulse width.
Don't get me wrong.... the factory injectors are pretty small..... but boosting the pressure up from 45psi to 65psi will increase their output by roughly 20%
Odds are you will also have to modify your exhaust and have a custom made downpipe made
I don't know the exact amount of boost you can get away with using the stock injectors..... but I'd have to think that it would be ok up to 4psi to 5psi of boost
Odds are 5psi is going to net you an additional 30hp to 40hp (rough guess) which may still be ok for the stock clutch.... it's hard to say.... depends on how old it is and if it's been abused.
For more than 4psi to 5psi you will definitly need bigger injectors and a better clutch ( could just upgrade the pressure plate.... but you might be better off going with a new setup rated for your horsepower level )
Unfortunatly if your getting a shop to install the new clutch it's probably going to set you back atleast $500 to $1000 depending on the shop and the type of clutch you get.
Personally if I was going with 4psi to 5psi then I would probably go with something smaller than a T3/T4..... I would look for a T3 60 trim or a T25 (depending on manifold style)
If you want something that will allow more boost later then you might want to look at something like a GT28RS..... it's quite a bit bigger but the ball bearing design will make it spool up just as quick if not quicker than a plain T25
T25 and GT28 have internal wastegates.... which is fine for low boost applications.... but sometimes it can make it a pain to line up the compressor housing if the angle of the manifold is off.
The reason for this is because the waste gate acutator is usually mounted onto the T25 compressor housing.... if you rotate the compressor the shaft won't line up with the waste gate on the turbine side.
You can get around this by making your own braket.... but it tends to be a pain sometimes.
With a non-internal wastegate T3 you can rotate the position of the compressor to whereever you want..... since the waste gate is separate.
Hmmmm..... what else..... well... I would suggest a wideband O2 sensor , pyrometer and a fuel pressure gauge (ideally remote sender)
As far as the E-Manage..... it's a decent unit..... there are other piggybacks that are just as good or better..... but you may want to pick one that your install shop recommends.
Basicly you want them to be comfortable with your choice of piggyback if they are going to tune your vehicle on a dyno.
The last thing you want is them sitting there reading instruction manuals while you pay them $70 an hour on the dyno.
A good example is my friend who owns a local dyno tuning shop.... if I brought in a car with an SMT6 or an Emanage he wouldn't even have to look at the manual.... he would know instantly what to do to tune the car.... so it might only take an hour or two worth of dyno time.
If on the other hand he has to figure out where the setting are and read the manual for each and every step it might take him 4 or 5 hours to do the same work.
If it takes him 3 to 4 hours longer then that is $200 to $300 down the drain because the shop is unfamiliar with your piggyback
Can you "road tune" your car? Yes.... but you have to have a wideband O2 system with data logging capability.
Basicly you make the car run rich ( say 10:1 A/F ) then you go out on a nice deserted strip of straight road with a friend.
Your friend watches the A/F and if you exceed 13:1 he tells you to cut it (let off the gas)
Ideally you want to run approximatly 12.5:1 to be safe..... you can go slightly leaner than that but your risking things with stock internals.
You can go richer.... say 11.5:1 or 12:1 to be on the safe side with stock internals but it means your power levels will be down and your fuel consumption up.
One thing that is allways a good idea when going turbo with stock internals is water or methanol injection.... personally I like water injection because you can get water anywhere.
The last thing you want is to be out in 100 degree weather and run out of alchohol.
Water injection is cheap..... and yes.... it will decrease power levels slightly but it just means that you need to add another psi or two of boost to make up for it.
In the end water injection will allow you to make more power.... because it allows you to make higher boost levels without risking detonation.
Oh.... one thing I like about the E-manage is the ability to control the ignition timing..... ideally you want to retard the ignition slightly from factory settings.
For this I think you have to buy the extra harness.... but it's not that much more money.
If you don't have a shop allready.... then you might want to go around and talk with a few of them..... they won't know much about your engine but that's not a big deal..... you can get all the info on the ECU and wiring from guys on this forum.
Hmmmmm..... what else..... well.... sometimes you will want to change the "heat" of the spark plugs and go down one level ( any decent tuning shop will know what I'm talking about and be able to cross reference new plugs )
Aftermarket coils are probably not neccissary unless your planning significant boost levels.
It wouldn't hurt to get a scan tool that plugs into your OBD2 port..... get one with a Live Data setting which will allow you to monitor information for most of the sensors.
It's not absolutely neccissary but for a few hundred dollars it will allow you to pull up and erase any check engine lights and figure out what the ECU is complaining about.
Odds are your local shop will have one.... but it's allways nice to be able to do it yourself.... most of the time it takes 10 or 20 seconds to figure out what's going on.
Reason I ask is that the transmission and clutch are limiting factors here.
If your going with low boost I would consider the idea of using the stock injectors with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.
When you change the injector size you can sometimes have issues tuning the idle to a reasonable air/fuel ratio
Piggy back systems have a limit to how much they can change the injector duty cycle since they are modifying parameters such as the MAP, IAT to make the stock ECU inject more or less fuel.
Adding more fuel is easy.... the piggyback unit simply holds the injector on for a longer duration..... making it shorter (as you would if you had larger injectors) is a harder thing.... it needs to change the MAP to make factory ECU decrease the injector pulse width.
Don't get me wrong.... the factory injectors are pretty small..... but boosting the pressure up from 45psi to 65psi will increase their output by roughly 20%
Odds are you will also have to modify your exhaust and have a custom made downpipe made
I don't know the exact amount of boost you can get away with using the stock injectors..... but I'd have to think that it would be ok up to 4psi to 5psi of boost
Odds are 5psi is going to net you an additional 30hp to 40hp (rough guess) which may still be ok for the stock clutch.... it's hard to say.... depends on how old it is and if it's been abused.
For more than 4psi to 5psi you will definitly need bigger injectors and a better clutch ( could just upgrade the pressure plate.... but you might be better off going with a new setup rated for your horsepower level )
Unfortunatly if your getting a shop to install the new clutch it's probably going to set you back atleast $500 to $1000 depending on the shop and the type of clutch you get.
Personally if I was going with 4psi to 5psi then I would probably go with something smaller than a T3/T4..... I would look for a T3 60 trim or a T25 (depending on manifold style)
If you want something that will allow more boost later then you might want to look at something like a GT28RS..... it's quite a bit bigger but the ball bearing design will make it spool up just as quick if not quicker than a plain T25
T25 and GT28 have internal wastegates.... which is fine for low boost applications.... but sometimes it can make it a pain to line up the compressor housing if the angle of the manifold is off.
The reason for this is because the waste gate acutator is usually mounted onto the T25 compressor housing.... if you rotate the compressor the shaft won't line up with the waste gate on the turbine side.
You can get around this by making your own braket.... but it tends to be a pain sometimes.
With a non-internal wastegate T3 you can rotate the position of the compressor to whereever you want..... since the waste gate is separate.
Hmmmm..... what else..... well... I would suggest a wideband O2 sensor , pyrometer and a fuel pressure gauge (ideally remote sender)
As far as the E-Manage..... it's a decent unit..... there are other piggybacks that are just as good or better..... but you may want to pick one that your install shop recommends.
Basicly you want them to be comfortable with your choice of piggyback if they are going to tune your vehicle on a dyno.
The last thing you want is them sitting there reading instruction manuals while you pay them $70 an hour on the dyno.
A good example is my friend who owns a local dyno tuning shop.... if I brought in a car with an SMT6 or an Emanage he wouldn't even have to look at the manual.... he would know instantly what to do to tune the car.... so it might only take an hour or two worth of dyno time.
If on the other hand he has to figure out where the setting are and read the manual for each and every step it might take him 4 or 5 hours to do the same work.
If it takes him 3 to 4 hours longer then that is $200 to $300 down the drain because the shop is unfamiliar with your piggyback
Can you "road tune" your car? Yes.... but you have to have a wideband O2 system with data logging capability.
Basicly you make the car run rich ( say 10:1 A/F ) then you go out on a nice deserted strip of straight road with a friend.
Your friend watches the A/F and if you exceed 13:1 he tells you to cut it (let off the gas)
Ideally you want to run approximatly 12.5:1 to be safe..... you can go slightly leaner than that but your risking things with stock internals.
You can go richer.... say 11.5:1 or 12:1 to be on the safe side with stock internals but it means your power levels will be down and your fuel consumption up.
One thing that is allways a good idea when going turbo with stock internals is water or methanol injection.... personally I like water injection because you can get water anywhere.
The last thing you want is to be out in 100 degree weather and run out of alchohol.
Water injection is cheap..... and yes.... it will decrease power levels slightly but it just means that you need to add another psi or two of boost to make up for it.
In the end water injection will allow you to make more power.... because it allows you to make higher boost levels without risking detonation.
Oh.... one thing I like about the E-manage is the ability to control the ignition timing..... ideally you want to retard the ignition slightly from factory settings.
For this I think you have to buy the extra harness.... but it's not that much more money.
If you don't have a shop allready.... then you might want to go around and talk with a few of them..... they won't know much about your engine but that's not a big deal..... you can get all the info on the ECU and wiring from guys on this forum.
Hmmmmm..... what else..... well.... sometimes you will want to change the "heat" of the spark plugs and go down one level ( any decent tuning shop will know what I'm talking about and be able to cross reference new plugs )
Aftermarket coils are probably not neccissary unless your planning significant boost levels.
It wouldn't hurt to get a scan tool that plugs into your OBD2 port..... get one with a Live Data setting which will allow you to monitor information for most of the sensors.
It's not absolutely neccissary but for a few hundred dollars it will allow you to pull up and erase any check engine lights and figure out what the ECU is complaining about.
Odds are your local shop will have one.... but it's allways nice to be able to do it yourself.... most of the time it takes 10 or 20 seconds to figure out what's going on.
2010 BMW 335D
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos
-
PrecisionBoost
- Super Moderator
- Posts: 4437
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:59 am
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
T25's are pretty cheap.... just make sure that you get a very good picture of the condition of the exhaust turbine around the internal wastegate.... it's extreemly common for them to crack over time.
Small hairline cracks are fine.... but you really have to watch out for anything bigger than that.
Personally I would stay away from the EBAY GT28 "nissan" turbos.... most are cheap knock offs.... it's hard to tell a real one from a knock off.
I would suggest looking for a Genuine Garrett turbo
Hmmm.... this would be a decent deal for a 5psi project.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Garr ... enameZWDVW
A GT2252 is fairly small so it would make for nearly instant boost... almost zero lag.... power from low RPM to high RPM.
At 5psi I have to think it would be a very good choice...... but it might be out of your price range
Small hairline cracks are fine.... but you really have to watch out for anything bigger than that.
Personally I would stay away from the EBAY GT28 "nissan" turbos.... most are cheap knock offs.... it's hard to tell a real one from a knock off.
I would suggest looking for a Genuine Garrett turbo
Hmmm.... this would be a decent deal for a 5psi project.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Garr ... enameZWDVW
A GT2252 is fairly small so it would make for nearly instant boost... almost zero lag.... power from low RPM to high RPM.
At 5psi I have to think it would be a very good choice...... but it might be out of your price range
2010 BMW 335D
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos
-
PrecisionBoost
- Super Moderator
- Posts: 4437
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:59 am
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
-
PrecisionBoost
- Super Moderator
- Posts: 4437
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:59 am
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
I'm back from my trip to Belgium.... just noticed your request for a PM.
I have to dig around and find it..... right now I have enough parts/engines/transmissions to fill a 1000 sq ft garage.... so it might take me a few days.
I'll get you some pics..... like I said.... I don't really need it..... it's kind of small for most of my projects.
Chris
I have to dig around and find it..... right now I have enough parts/engines/transmissions to fill a 1000 sq ft garage.... so it might take me a few days.
I'll get you some pics..... like I said.... I don't really need it..... it's kind of small for most of my projects.
Chris
2010 BMW 335D
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos
1994 Opel Calibra 4X4 turbo ( C20LET 2.0L Turbo )
2002 Daewoo lanos