Still have no power.. need the car to test your guys HEADERS

[kinkyllama]

now that you say it does it without being in gear that might change things.

however, it still sounds like there is a too much load or some sort of drag or binding on the motor.

it kind of reminds me of an article i read where a guy tried making his own tranni adapter and it didn't line up perfect and put a ton of tension and drag on the motor.

do you still have the 5-speed?

garrett

No I don't, it was junk anyways. I could buy another one for when I eventually do the 2.0/D20 swap into a lanos but I reaaallllyyy dont want to pay $600-$800 to have the new tranny installed since I dont have the tools to do it myself. Then another $600-$800 to restall the F28 if that's not the problem or whatever

[gse_turbo]

unless you had the tranny and the ability to do it yourself don't spend the money on a 'test'.

garrett

[daewoomofo]

i know its not the greatest thing to do but try running it open header. no cat or anything. its gonna be loud as all hell, while it off look to see if its clogged. might sound strange but with the car sitting for a long time, something (cat, rat, bird, ect, or even a bee's nest) could have even climbed up into your exhaust and died restricting flow causting it to smell and not letting it rev, i know its off the wall and a long shot but did you make sure there were no intake/exhaust obstructions?

[PrecisionBoost]

Sensors in the tranny??????

It's a D20... the only interaction with the ECU is the speed sensor.

Who installed the Quaife LSD??? .... they may have loaded the bearings incorrectly.... but I'd have to think the bearings would be making quite a bit of noise if they were responsible

I mean it's possible that the tranny is the issue..... but I still think it's engine related.


With regards to the injectors.... dropping from 44 pound injectors to Leganza injectors ( what are they.... 21 lbs/hr ?? ) is a giant leap.... that's a reduction of fuel by over 50% !!!!

The SMT 6 was most likely cutting the fuel by changing the MAP sensor information to your ECU (as most piggybacks do ).... so it's hard to say how the ECU will react after changing the injectors like that.

If I was Boshart I would have walked you through reseting the SMT6 so that there is no change to the ECU signals ( basicly operates as if the SMT6 was not there... which would be just fine for the Leganza injectors )

Smelling the exhaust when running lean won't really indicate anything.... it's only when it's really rich that you smell the fuel in the exhaust.

In Open loop the car is running off pre-programed maps in the ECU/Piggyback

When the car is in closed loop it's using the O2 sensor to adjust the A/F

But if there is a wild offset due to the SMT6 it's possible that the ECU won't be able to accomidate in closed loop..... so it will run rich then lean then rich then lean

In the lean parts it's possible to get some minor detonation and under heavy load (such as racing) you could have created hot spots on the piston and weakened it.

As far as the O2 sensor.... you should have spent the $3 for another bung and welded it into your current exhaust...... you may not realize this.... but the O2 sensor can not under any circumstances go into the manifold.... it's too hot.

The O2 sensor has to be mounted atleast 3 feet down stream from the turbo manifold ( I will check on the numbers tommorow to see the exact recomended distance )


My personal opinion..... get that O2 bung installed into your exhaust at a local exhaust shop and have them install the O2 sensor for you.

The rest of the install is really not that complex.... you basicly just need power for the innovative "box" and connect it to the wideband O2 sensor.

From there it's just a matter of hooking it up to a laptop and configuring it (which Tom and I can help you with )


Perhaps a compression test would give you some indication of the condition of the pistons and rings.... if you don't have a test gauge you should be able to pick one up for $20 to $30



As for your motor which the guy will not ship....... where is the motor located???

[kinkyllama]

i know its not the greatest thing to do but try running it open header. no cat or anything. its gonna be loud as all hell, while it off look to see if its clogged. might sound strange but with the car sitting for a long time, something (cat, rat, bird, ect, or even a bee's nest) could have even climbed up into your exhaust and died restricting flow causting it to smell and not letting it rev, i know its off the wall and a long shot but did you make sure there were no intake/exhaust obstructions?

Not even open header, just after the mid-pipe before the CAT would do. But will not using that last 02 sensor cause some sorta limp mode?

Sensors in the tranny??????

It's a D20... the only interaction with the ECU is the speed sensor.

Who installed the Quaife LSD??? .... they may have loaded the bearings incorrectly.... but I'd have to think the bearings would be making quite a bit of noise if they were responsible

I mean it's possible that the tranny is the issue..... but I still think it's engine related.


With regards to the injectors.... dropping from 44 pound injectors to Leganza injectors ( what are they.... 21 lbs/hr ?? ) is a giant leap.... that's a reduction of fuel by over 50% !!!!

The SMT 6 was most likely cutting the fuel by changing the MAP sensor information to your ECU (as most piggybacks do ).... so it's hard to say how the ECU will react after changing the injectors like that.

If I was Boshart I would have walked you through reseting the SMT6 so that there is no change to the ECU signals ( basicly operates as if the SMT6 was not there... which would be just fine for the Leganza injectors )

Smelling the exhaust when running lean won't really indicate anything.... it's only when it's really rich that you smell the fuel in the exhaust.

In Open loop the car is running off pre-programed maps in the ECU/Piggyback

When the car is in closed loop it's using the O2 sensor to adjust the A/F

But if there is a wild offset due to the SMT6 it's possible that the ECU won't be able to accomidate in closed loop..... so it will run rich then lean then rich then lean

In the lean parts it's possible to get some minor detonation and under heavy load (such as racing) you could have created hot spots on the piston and weakened it.

As far as the O2 sensor.... you should have spent the $3 for another bung and welded it into your current exhaust...... you may not realize this.... but the O2 sensor can not under any circumstances go into the manifold.... it's too hot.

The O2 sensor has to be mounted atleast 3 feet down stream from the turbo manifold ( I will check on the numbers tommorow to see the exact recomended distance )


My personal opinion..... get that O2 bung installed into your exhaust at a local exhaust shop and have them install the O2 sensor for you.

The rest of the install is really not that complex.... you basicly just need power for the innovative "box" and connect it to the wideband O2 sensor.

From there it's just a matter of hooking it up to a laptop and configuring it (which Tom and I can help you with )


Perhaps a compression test would give you some indication of the condition of the pistons and rings.... if you don't have a test gauge you should be able to pick one up for $20 to $30



As for your motor which the guy will not ship....... where is the motor located???

I have the F28 in the car....it's been in since the problems been there.


I dont have a turbo on either and I switched to the leggy injectors over 20k miles ago without a retune and even had it dyno'd once since then and the AFR wasn't horrible.

What about CAM timing or teeth or something? Someones said something bout that.

Tomorrow I'm going to take off the exhaust from the CAT and back and see how it runs. Can someone confirm that not using the 02 sensor will or will not put the engine in limp mode? I just hope I have time to do this before I drive to Cali tomorrow night

The motors in PA, but the guys basicly just trying to run off with my money, long story

[daewoomofo]

i havent driven a car with the second o2 pulled, but i know that if the first one is pulled, it just throws a CEL. but its not in limp mode. limp is for when there is some thing REALLY wrong, kinda like how it is now...

[jidasas]

Precision: I completely overlooked the fact he has a manual tranny and those computers are different than the autos.

Jimmy

[PrecisionBoost]

The F28 is a beast.... it would create more drivetrain loss... and the gearing is different.... so who knows.

Do you think the clutch could be slipping (especially at higher RPM levels ??? )

Tom has had to screw around with the second O2 on his car.... I belive that the engine did go into "Open Loop - Fault " during the times where it triggered a CEL

For us it's easy.... I have an OBD scanner so we can erase it... even while driving.

Chris

[kinkyllama]

The F28 is a beast.... it would create more drivetrain loss... and the gearing is different.... so who knows.

Do you think the clutch could be slipping (especially at higher RPM levels ??? )

Tom has had to screw around with the second O2 on his car.... I belive that the engine did go into "Open Loop - Fault " during the times where it triggered a CEL

For us it's easy.... I have an OBD scanner so we can erase it... even while driving.

Chris

What's it feel like when the clutch is slipping? and are you asking if it's slipping while I'm already in gear and just pushing the gas?

Well if it went into that open loop would it ever trigger a different CEL that would be stored?


--Monday afternone I'm taking off the CAT and driving around the block to see how it feels. I'm also ordering a high flow CAT cause even if my stock one isn't clogged it's still burned out.

[PrecisionBoost]

If the clutch was slipping at higher RPM what would happen is this....

You would be accelerating strongly then as you reach peak torque ( 5600 RPM ) the car would very quickly feel like it has a dramatic loss of power ( basicly when the clutch starts slipping it can't transfer the power)

Then in all likelyhood your engine RPM would increase without feeling like your accelerating any faster (would feel like the car bogged down)

Then again.... if the clutch starts slipping at 4500 RPM and moves up to 5500 RPM....perhaps with this puck clutch it heats up and then grabs.... quickly dropping the RPM back down to the tranny speed ( which would be 4500 RPM)

I'm not familiar with how these puck clutches work during slippage... I know it's different than if it was an organic clutch.


As well.... the clutch would defnitly give you a foul odor..... but you said it came from the tailpipe... which still leads me to belive it may be a Cat/O2 problem.


The clutch slipping thing was just a thought...... it lines up with some of what you said but other parts of how you describe it seem to be lead me away from thinking it's the clutch


If your secondary O2 triggered a CEL it should show up with a scanner.

However.... if you have a plugged Cat then you might not see a CEL.... it's hard to say for sure.

I think you are wise to buy a high flow Cat and see how things go.... and again... while your doing that get the wideband O2 bung installed into the exahust.

it must go between the turbo and the catalytic converter... never in manifold.... the only thing that should go into the manifold is a Pyrometer sensor.

[kinkyllama]

If the clutch was slipping at higher RPM what would happen is this....

You would be accelerating strongly then as you reach peak torque ( 5600 RPM ) the car would very quickly feel like it has a dramatic loss of power ( basicly when the clutch starts slipping it can't transfer the power)

Then in all likelyhood your engine RPM would increase without feeling like your accelerating any faster (would feel like the car bogged down)

Then again.... if the clutch starts slipping at 4500 RPM and moves up to 5500 RPM....perhaps with this puck clutch it heats up and then grabs.... quickly dropping the RPM back down to the tranny speed ( which would be 4500 RPM)

I'm not familiar with how these puck clutches work during slippage... I know it's different than if it was an organic clutch.


As well.... the clutch would defnitly give you a foul odor..... but you said it came from the tailpipe... which still leads me to belive it may be a Cat/O2 problem.


The clutch slipping thing was just a thought...... it lines up with some of what you said but other parts of how you describe it seem to be lead me away from thinking it's the clutch


If your secondary O2 triggered a CEL it should show up with a scanner.

However.... if you have a plugged Cat then you might not see a CEL.... it's hard to say for sure.

I think you are wise to buy a high flow Cat and see how things go.... and again... while your doing that get the wideband O2 bung installed into the exahust.

it must go between the turbo and the catalytic converter... never in manifold.... the only thing that should go into the manifold is a Pyrometer sensor.

Firstly, I don't have the turbo on, or the exhaust I'll be using for the turbo. I'm building prototype exhausts but n/a 2.0s... but I wanna keep it in good shape cuz i'll probably use as much of it as possible if I end up getting a lanos and doing a 2.0 swap.

Well the car starts doing something at 2,700 rpms, it loses lots of power and gets raspy as hell but doesn't totally fall on it's face untill a bit later, probably right where it goes into open loop. I'll see tomorrow what the CAT does for me.

Danny

[exist3nce]

Sorry to hear you are still having these problems.


When it cuts out, does it feel like a hard cut, like when u hit the rev limiter?

During the initial tuning stages of my car, I drove around for a while with the rear O2 unplugged. Yes it caused a CEL, but nothing else major happened. Slightly less performance (the ECU pulled about 1-2 deg of timing), but the car still revved through the RPMs cleanly. Even with both O2s out, the car should still rev through clean and not cut out (we tried that too). I strongly suggest you buy a OBD2 code scanner and see what codes you have in the ECU.


Also , what did you do to get the speedo working 100% ?

[kinkyllama]

Sorry to hear you are still having these problems.


When it cuts out, does it feel like a hard cut, like when u hit the rev limiter?

During the initial tuning stages of my car, I drove around for a while with the rear O2 unplugged. Yes it caused a CEL, but nothing else major happened. Slightly less performance (the ECU pulled about 1-2 deg of timing), but the car still revved through the RPMs cleanly. Even with both O2s out, the car should still rev through clean and not cut out (we tried that too). I strongly suggest you buy a OBD2 code scanner and see what codes you have in the ECU.


Also , what did you do to get the speedo working 100% ?

No, it starts to get worst like you'd feel from a fuel or probably timing issue.

I got it scanned at autozone, the only code was basicly the second CAT being burned out, but nothing else.

Just fixed my leaking ignition coil that was shooting sparks too my hood, it's strange after I fixed it my speedo still didn't work (but was better) for the 15 min ride home....but the like 500 miles since then it's worked 100%

[kinkyllama]

Got the CAT out and it didn't look very bad, replaced it and the problems still there. Though my exhaust sounds better

I ordered new 02 sensors just for the hell of it, maybe I'll get lucky. Other than that what should I look into next?


Some more info; when I rev it high and does its strange thing it makes a really obvious sound, but I can't really describe it. It's almost like a metal raspy sound thing. lol. But it's very obvious and sounds horrible for the car

[daewoomofo]

do you have a digicam? if so just make a crappy vid of the car and the sound. it doesnt have too look great just as long as we can see adn hear whats going on.