tell me what you think!

[gse_turbo]

i'm intertaining the idea again of converting to E85.

it first i was considering Methanol but it's not very user friendly so back to E85.

the system is very simple and not really any more expensive then an upgraded pump gas setup.

i've done my research but i want to hear what you guys (and girls) have to say.

the components for my application would be:

• •16 volt battery
  •two methanol fuel pumps (two small pumps for long life)
  •fuel lines with an inner liner
  •methanol specific fuel regulator for boosted applications
  •roughly 700cc injectors
  •stand alone FMU and EMU
  •RCI fuel cell

so lets hear it, what do you think?

garrett

[kinkyllama]

Sounds cool! I really dont know much about it so that's all the input I can give

[gse_turbo]

well it's a start!

garrett

[PrecisionBoost]

I was thinking about running the standard 4 injectors and one or two extra injectors after the throttle body pumping in E85 or Race gas.

So far I like E85.... it has less energy per pound of fuel but it's very friendly for boost.

There is a lot of "Is this compatible with E85" stuff to look over.... seals will get screwed up when high concentration Ethanol is put through them

But from what I've read so far this is a "long term" issue.... so what if I have to replace a few seals here and there every year.... if I end up running as much power as I'd like to the engine probably won't last more than one season anyways.

My biggest problem is that E85 is not readily available up here in Edmonton ( oil capital of Canada ) so I'd have to source it from somewhere else.... which is a pain since it's considered dangerous goods if shipped via courier or cargo truck.

Chris

[exist3nce]

E85 sounds like a cool idea, and ofcourse has alot of potential for boost. Go for it ! (and tell us how well it works )

[Audacity Racing]

All for it... just watch your oil and get a good catch tank system for the crank breather. Alcohol in general is a much smaller molecule than water and CO2 with standard gasoline being even bigger still... that means that blow-by is a much more pronounced problem. You don't loose power necessarily, but rather the alcohol has a tendency to breakdown engine oil significantly faster.... plus it holds water and that's no good for your lubrication system.

[gse_turbo]

thanks, hadn't considered blow by!

garrett

[PrecisionBoost]

?????? Ethanol is smaller than water and CO2 ??????

CH3CH2OH (Ethanol) is bigger than H20 and CO2..... ..... sorry man.... your way out of the ballpark with that one.

Yes... it is smaller than a good majority of the molecules in Gasoline since Gasoline is a random mixture of paraffins, branched paraffins, cyclopentanes, and cyclohexanes

Some of the molecules are Butane (C4H10).... which is fairly close to the size of Ethanol but most are up into the higher carbon content molecules such as Hexane which is (C6H14) and Octane which is (C8H18)

Ethanol does like to absorb water.... but I've yet to hear of an issue where by which the use of Ethanol causes a deterioration of oil lubircation properites.

Please feel free to drop some articles my way if you have anything on the Ethanol/Oil breakdown issue.

Chris

[Audacity Racing]

That would be true if atomic weight meant volume...


Think of it in terms of density which gives you a better idea...

Gasoline is WAY less dense than water, but way heavier... therefore it's a larger molecule.
Ethanol has a similar density to gasoline, but is miscible... still a large molecule, but it's miscible and fully at that...


Water, in all forms, is severely polar. It groups together in masses. Ethanol is content to stay singular and thus has the ability to "fill the gaps" in water. Think back to high school to the famous experiment... 10cc's of water + 10cc's of alcohol (ethyl, ester, propyl, ANY of them) = 13cc's total volume...




Even under the extreme pressure/heat of the combustion chamber, the effect still exists. Singular ethanol molecules are far more likely to pass the rings than masses of water molecules.



As an example of the point, between runs, alcohol dragsters change their oil... it's really not that stressful on the oil to run a 1/4 mile, but it breaks down due to the water attraction caused by the alcohol. More specifically, if you're running synthetic oil (alcohol based) and run heavy alcohol power delivery, the oil will turn back into alcohol, water, and an acid.


I'm looking for some SAE papers for you
As to the last statement I made there about breaking down... here... http://www.machinerylubrication.com/art ... cleid=1010 (see hydrolysis)


In short, you're right technically, but the point I was trying to make stands, haha

[FabricatorX]

good to see you here

[gse_turbo]

welcome back Audacity and not a moment to soon. thanks to the both of you for the input. i've been more cot up with making sure the parts and system will be strong and be able to stand up to the corrosion that i hadn't truly considered a lot of what you guys are saying.

garrett

[PrecisionBoost]

That would be true if atomic weight meant volume...

I'm not looking at density, I'm looking at the lewis structure of the molecule and it's affinity for bonds.

As an example of the point, between runs, alcohol dragsters change their oil... it's really not that stressful on the oil to run a 1/4 mile, but it breaks down due to the water attraction caused by the alcohol. More specifically, if you're running synthetic oil (alcohol based) and run heavy alcohol power delivery, the oil will turn back into alcohol, water, and an acid.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most alchohol dragsters are running 80% to 85% Nitromethane and 15% to 20% methanol.... which is quite a differenece from E85

Dragsters are usually throwing 15 to 25 Gallons of fuel into the cylinders during their run and by the time they hit 3/4 track a number of the cylinders will be non-functional due to the fact that they are completly flooded with fuel.

I'm pretty sure the damage to the oil is from fuel pushing through the rings at the end of a run when the cylinders are full of unburnt fuel.

I'm looking for some SAE papers for you
As to the last statement I made there about breaking down... here... http://www.machinerylubrication.com/art ... cleid=1010 (see hydrolysis)

If E85 was a major problem the newer Flex Fuel vehicles would have completely different maintenence schedules compared to non-flex vehicles.

Don't get me wrong... when using E85 most manufacturers will recomend that the oil be changed more often (some as little as 2000miles but most at 5000miles depending on vehicle type )

Many oils manufactured after roughly 2000 are allready "Ethanol" friendly and meet standards such as M-9214 or M-6395

In short, you're right technically, but the point I was trying to make stands, haha

Of course were both right in many points...... don't get me wrong.... I don't know absolutely everything about E85 yet (been researchiung it here and there for a year or so)

Anyways.... it's all different shades of grey... nobody truely knows the long term impact of E85 on newer engines yet.

It's fun having someone to argue with again .... it's been a while

[mtlswift]

Think of it in terms of density which gives you a better idea...
Gasoline is WAY less dense than water, but way heavier... therefore it's a larger molecule.
Ethanol has a similar density to gasoline, but is miscible... still a large molecule, but it's miscible and fully at that...
Water, in all forms, is severely polar. It groups together in masses. Ethanol is content to stay singular and thus has the ability to "fill the gaps" in water. Think back to high school to the famous experiment... 10cc's of water + 10cc's of alcohol (ethyl, ester, propyl, ANY of them) = 13cc's total volume...
Even under the extreme pressure/heat of the combustion chamber, the effect still exists. Singular ethanol molecules are far more likely to pass the rings than masses of water molecules.

It has nothing to do with density, weight, mass, volume etc. Alcohols can be both polar and "greasy" at the same time and in that capacity and dissolve or be absorbed/desorbed from seals relatively easily. Plus it has a relatively low volatility and lower phase change energy than water, so there will be more gaseous EtOH that is of higher energy than water which results in more blow-by.
Have you ever mixed 10 mL of H2O and 10 mL of EtOH together? It gives almost 20 mL volume-wise. It's not quite 20, but it's >19 mL (definitely not 13 mL). Trust me, I've demonstrated the shrinking liquid "trick" in many a mall show demo and EtOH/water isn't the best combination.
Ethanol is a larger molecule than water because it has more atoms an. However, water packs more tightly which is why, for a given volume, water weighs more than ethanol. Most components of gasoline are not heavier than water. Pour gasoline into water, the gas will float.
How can something be less dense yet heavier??

[PrecisionBoost]

Plus it has a relatively low volatility and lower phase change energy than water, so there will be more gaseous EtOH that is of higher energy than water which results in more blow-by.

I would definitly agree about the lower phase change energy, but I think that it would cause less blow-by instead of more blow-by.

EtOH that moves into gas form would burn completly right at the start of the power stroke and be converted to CO2/H2O so I don't see how it would get pushed past the rings.

I thought that fuel blow-by is usually caused by unburnt liquid fuels near the outer edge (quench pads) of the piston being pushed past the rings under pressure and into the oil during the power stroke ( roughly 10 deg ATDC to 90 deg ATDC ).

Even if the EtOH absorbes some water it should still be converted to vapour during ignition and bind with the C02/H20 byproducts during the burn cycle.

I might be talking out of my ass here..... but this is the way I see it.....

phase change from liquid to gas = more complete burn = less unburnt fuel = less fuel getting into the oil.

[mtlswift]

Well, ethanol is in the majority now in E85, so although there may be less overall blow-by gasses, the composition is now mainly ethanol. And since ethanol vapors can carry water vapors better than gasoline vapors can, the final composition of the gasses is more detrimental towards engine oil now...