Aveo 1.6 can take 70 shot.**No it can't!

Brian5475E · Post by **Brian5475E** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:10 am

Well RoRo over at the Aveo forum had his nitrous hooked up. 70 shot.
http://aveoclub.proboards26.com/index.c ... 1136419180

Well RoRo blew the engine on the Aveo. said #4 was half compression so he junked the car

lanos2001 · Post by **lanos2001** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 am

without forged internals can someone say KABOOM!!! after soo long of using it? cool though that it can withstand that. i just wouldn't trust it. maybe do it once or twice but after that at the most i would go with a 50shot.

nick

BosnianLanos · Post by **BosnianLanos** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:33 am

Right. I'm sure our cars could run 100 shot a couple times, but the 10th time, you'd better be wearing kevlar, because something is breaking.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:05 pm

If it's a wet nitrous kit..... I don't think a 70 shot is all that much.

Remember..... this engine was factory tuned to nearly 150hp with no effect on reliability of the engine....they only pulled it back to 106hp to keep good fuel econonmy, emissions and overall driveability.

175hp to 190hp isn't much past that if you ask me..... and we are talking about crank horsepower here..... convert that to wheel horsepower and were only talking about 150whp.

Personally....I think a 70 shot is getting up there but I doubt that it's going to hurt it unless he's hitting it at low RPM..... if it's kicking in at high RPM only.... then I don't see a problem.

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:16 pm

wow... i would be leary of using a wet kit on an aveo without the lanos intkae manifold upgrade. plastics are far more brittle when it comes to thermal expansion and shooting nitrous (i would think) would be detremental to the performance of the plastic.

i'm sure those are an oil based, high heat reinforced plastic, but the temp drop is pretty severe. manifold tempratures usually drop around 120 degrees with nitrous, which in the grand scheme of things is actuallt quite a large jump (enough to break most glass and ceramics)

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:18 am

I don't know which type of plastic they are using.....but they won't conduct heat/cold the same way as an aluminum intake.

I bet that the internal temperature wouldn't drop by more than 20 degrees with nitrous.

I have a special spray I use for troubleshooting electronics.... it sprays out a compressed liquid at -65 degrees Celcius..... I find that the metal components take seconds to get to -65 deg C but plastics and fibreglass seem to take several minutes.

Many of the plastics we use these days have similar characteristics to that of steel..... nearly impossible to break and they take thermal changes very well.

In fact.... one of our products is made out of a plastic called Peek.... it outperformed an aluminum case by a factor of ten..... and this stuff is being drug and smacked around in the frigid north where temperatures drop to -40 degrees in winter.

So..... I don't know if the plastic intake with nitrous is bad or not..... it really depends on what kind of plastic it is.

04aveohb · Post by **04aveohb** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:26 am

he has ana aluminum intake, I guess a CAI...but he is running a manifold...which is plastic...so i dunno, he said he drove it on the highway today..so im not sure, lookin ok for right now..

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:27 am

welll teh theory of nitrous is that for every 10 degrees cooler you make the temp inside the combustion chamber, you gain 1% power. by being general with the aveo/lanos and saying that a 50 shot yields 150 hp, that means the temp after compression is in the range of -500 degrees over stock (which i would imagine to be around 200 degrees, plus some because of heat transference through the metal).

another thing is that most wet kits, when used in a drag sort of scenario, are on for vast amounts of time (in the scheme of things were as 17 seconds is eternity).

i don't think you'd see failure of the manifold as a whole as much as you would near the nos jets. that's not to say that the pressure is such to blow them out should there be a failure of material, but the threads would become weak.

i also didn't say it was emminantly dangerous, it's just that i would be far more suspicious of thermal expansion stresses on a plastic intake. to be in the constant temp range, that plastic really has to be an oil based (similar to the plastic found in the gear shift of the lanos/aveo).

one final thought... the intake manifold is braced to teh engine through the rear support, so there really isn't any chance of it really "breaking" off or anything, i was just thinking of stress fractures that would become a problem if boost was applied.

Brian5475E · Post by **Brian5475E** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:24 am

**Update*** Something happened.

RoRo:Everything is stock on the internals. A little bad news, while driving and playing around with the system on the way home, I was pushing about 4000 rpms in 5th and punched the gas. Something happened, it didn't pop or make any noises like the engine blew up (and I've blown up 2 engines on a focus before, so I know what that sounds like) but it just started sounding funny. I got it home and immediately pulled all of the spark plugs and changed the oil. The spark plug from cylinder 4 had the bottom curvy thing completely melted off. So I went out and bought 4 new plugs that were supposedly better than the stock plugs, but I just got back from driving it around and it is still sounding funny and it idles very rough and shakes. I've already looked all over the outside of the engine and there are no holes or anything that looks out of place, but something isn't right.

I was reading on another forum where they said that some nitrous systems recommend that you adjust your timing. So i'm hoping the timing is off and I can adjust that and be back to normal. Don't get me wrong, the car still pulls very hard, it just idles rough and doesn't sound right. I think I will get it checked out in the next few days by a trusted tuner and see what his opinion is.

GsiTurbo · Post by **GsiTurbo** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:38 am

Well...if I may. I have worked on a two vehicles, both Neons, running ZEX Wet nitrous setups with no negative effects. The intake in the Aveo appears to be of same type, therefore I imagine this is not a problem.

Strength-wise...I agree with Erfinder. I would however, strongly recommend upgrading to ARP rod-bolts.

As far as RoRo's problem goes, this is due to the plugs running to hot. In this type of situation a step or two colder plugs are required to prevent melt-down. The gap should also be decreased. A good inexpensive choice would be the NGK V-groove, or iridium. I would not recommend running Bosch Platinum or similar in this setup. They were proven to cause poor engine performance and often misfiring.

Tom

Post by **Efratech** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:09 pm

in 5th gear?

i had nitrous before... and i use it a couple of times in 5th.. and honestly is not worth it... the ratio is very long

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:45 am

Audacityracing wrote:welll teh theory of nitrous is that for every 10 degrees cooler you make the temp inside the combustion chamber, you gain 1% power. by being general with the aveo/lanos and saying that a 50 shot yields 150 hp, that means the temp after compression is in the range of -500 degrees over stock (which i would imagine to be around 200 degrees, plus some because of heat transference through the metal).

ummm.... your really confusing me.

Ok.... first off... nitrous has a boiling point of -129.1 degrees .... at best a huge shot of nitrous is going to decrease the intake charge by roughly 80 degrees.....keep in mind the ratio of air volume vs nitrous gas volume..... it's probably pretty high even for a 200 shot.

Think about it this way..... air temp +80 degrees and nitrous gas temp is -130 degrees.

If they were mixed in equal 1:1 volumes the net temperature would drop down to -25 degrees .... which would be a 105 degree drop in temperature.

There is no way that it's a 1:1 ratio.... it's probalby more like 2:1 or higher for a 50 shot.

So.... with a 2:1 ratio of air volume to nitrous volume... your only going to see a drop in temperature of roughly 70 degrees ( intake temp = +10 )

This will have a minimal effect on the compression temperatures..... it just means that you will get a denser air charge and thus more power.

I hate to say it... but your -500 degree calculation is not correct..... most of the power from the Nitrous is not from the cooling effect.... nitrous is an oxidizer with 36% oxygen content.... during the power stroke it dissociates into nitrogen and oxygen.

So.... it's adding more oxygen to the system..... just like a turbocharger.

The net result is that if you add more fuel.... you make more power.... and at the same time.... you make significantly more heat.

So nitrous decreases intake temperatures but causes more energy to be released.... which drives up the exhaust temps just like a turbo would.

Furthermore.... just like a turbo.... you have to adjust the timing to ensure that you don't get detonation.... I'm not sure how many degrees of retard you must run but I will try and do some research on the subject.... it might be 10 to 20 degrees...I'm not sure...I'm more familiar with turbo timing than nitrous timing.

As for RoRo.... perhaps he over did it.... not enough fuel.... not enough timing retard... I have no idea how his system is setup.... or how much tuning was done on the engine.

A correctly set up wet nitrous kit is perfectly safe.... but it should be done by qualified personel at a tuner shop that has a dyno and wideband air/fuel gauge.

I'd also think that an exhaust temperature gauge is a really good idea.... just like in a turbo setup.

And I also totally agree with Tom.... just like in a turbo car.... you need colder plugs.

I still think the stock internals are just fine...including the rod bolts..... the extra 70hp will probably only increase rod bolt pressure by 5% to 10%...... you would see way more force on the bolts by simply running the redline 1000RPM higher.

Tom.... compare this to the info Corky Bell published.... this situation would be like running about 0.7bar of boost ( 10psi )..... I don't remember what it is for 1 bar... I thought it only equated to an additional loading force of 20% ( please correct me if I'm wrong )

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:41 am

i don't think you got the concept i was offering there, but ok...

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:11 pm

It looked to me like you were using the theory that each 1% of nitrous power decreased the temp by 10 degrees.

So 50hp shot X 10 degrees gives you -500 right??

This is where I was saying your theory is off.

The majority of the 50shot comes from the oxidization properties of the nitrous.... not the temperature decrease from the boiling of the nitrous as it enters into the intake.

So.... say 8hp of the 50 comes from the decrease in temperature and 42hp comes from the oxygen dissociating from the Nitrous and burning with the extra fuel.

So.... 8hp X 10 degrees = -80degrees...... but this is and intake temperature drop not compression temperature drop.

Compression temp might be dropped by a couple of degrees due to the lower temperature intake charge but the offset of more heat generated would mean the net compression temp will be much higher than if there is no nitrous (since the compressed air will quickly absorb heat from the aluminum cylinder head and piston.... and they are hotter when used with nitrous)

Anyways..... sorry for all you out there that are uninterested in this technical crap.

lanos2001 · Post by **lanos2001** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:13 pm

apology accepted.

actually this has been quite useful to me and i'm sure other people.

nick