Is this for real??!

[MMamdouh]

Quoting NGK:

DIS (Distributorless Ignition System) fires twice as often as a conventional ignition system and changes direction of fire. A conventional ignition fires on the compression stroke from the center electrode to the ground electrode. A DIS ignition does the same, but also fires on the exhaust stroke from the ground to the center electrode.

i know that our systems generate a waste spark but does that waste spark goes the wrong way as NGK site stated??

MMamdouh

[PrecisionBoost]

Well..... hmmmm.... technically primary sparks jump from ground to the positive electrode...

Ummmm....hmmmm.... I don't know if I should get into this here or not..... basicly..... everything you've ever been told about electricity is a half lie.

Electricity doesn't actually flow from positive to negative

It's actually the other way around..... electrons (electricity) flows from ground to positive.

Basicly if your a physisist or chemist you show diagrams flowing from ground to positive...... if your an electrical engineer you show it flowing from positive to negative.

It doesn't make a damned bit of difference when solving equations.... so the ancient method of showing flow from positive to negative is still being used today (for some unknown reason...even though its wrong)

Ok......this probably isn't the place to go into this..... but I will try and quickly explain what really happens in a way that you can understand.

A "positive" atom is one where an electron has been stripped away .... which gives it a net (+) charge.

We call these "holes"

The ground side is where all the electrons are stored.

So..... since the "positive" atoms want to get back to a neutral state.... they do "work" to get their electrons back.

Remember.... opposites attract.... so the (-) electrons want to go back to the (+) atoms

So..... if you connect a resistor between the (+) and (-) terminals of your battery...... the electrons will flow out of the negative side.... through the resistor and back into their atoms (which makes them neutral)

When a battery runs out of power it simply means that the "holes" on the positive side of the battery have been filled up with electrons.

That is where an alternator comes in...... it creates a strong electric field to force the electrons away from the atoms and shoves them onto the negative side again...... which allows the battery to keep it's "charge"

So..... hopefully you understand it now...... the more "holes" you create the higher the net positive charge on the (+) terminal

The more positive the charge (thus higher voltage) the more the electrons want to go back.
( just like with magnets.... the stronger the (+) and (-) fields the more they want to come together )

Think of a battery as an average magnet..... think of the forces in an ignition system as two five hundred pound pull magnets.

So.... in the ignition system the electrode is given a huge (+) charge.... which is to say there are lots and lots of holes on that side.

The electrons are attracted so much that they will jump the air gap from the cylinder block (which is attached to the (-) side with all the electrons) to the center electrode..... which creates a spark.

Belive it or not.... lightning also does this.... the actual lightning strike starts from the ground and goes up to the atmosphere..... it's called a leeder (not sure of spelling)

We allways see it going from the atmosphere down to the ground but that's because we don't see the initial strike.... we only see the flash of light.

Basicly..... the ground is filled with electrons..... the atmosphere becomes positively charged..... so eventually the electrons will cross the air gap between the ground and the clouds to create a path for the lighnting.

Anyways..... I started slightly off topic and now I'm getting even further.

If you don't belive me..... look it up.... you will find out everything I have said so far is the complete truth.

Chris

[PrecisionBoost]

DIS (Distributorless Ignition System) fires twice as often as a conventional ignition system and changes direction of fire. A conventional ignition fires on the compression stroke from the center electrode to the ground electrode. A DIS ignition does the same, but also fires on the exhaust stroke from the ground to the center electrode.

Well..... getting on this topic now..... ummm.... I do agree with their statement.... but I don't know if I can make you understand what is happening.

Basicly.... when the coil is fired both a negative and positive "spike" occurs inside the ignition coil..... so one spark plug wire is really positive in charge and one is really negative in charge.

This is where it might get confusing.... on the positive side..... the spark jumps like a conventional spark plug..... which is from the block (ground) to the electrode..... but on the other side it jumps the exact opposite way.

OK.... let's pretend that the (-) terminal of the battery has 10,000 electrons.

Now.... lets say that by firing the coil we've stripped 30,000 electrons off the positive side (giving it a really positive charge) compared to the ground.

At this point the (-) side of the ignition coil has 30,000 electrons on it's terminal so it's a really negatively charged terminal.

(basicly the coil pulls the electrons off the (+) side and forces them onto the (-) side of the ignition coil )

Now..... here is the important part.... the (-) battery only has 10,000 electrons and the (-) side of the ignition coil has 30,000 electrons

So there is a 20,000 electron difference.... so in fact when your looking from the perspective of the (-) ignition terminal the ground seems as though it has a net positive charge..... so.... the electrons from jump from the (-) coil terminal through the spark plug wire onto the electrode and then to ground.

This spark isn't as strong as the one on the (+) side but it still jumps the gap.

I know this is all confusing...... but I had to get into the physics behind electricity to give you an understanding of what's going on.

In order to not confuse everyone the engineers at NKG and the engineers in the rest of the world keep on with the ancient method of electricity and sparks jumping from (+) to (-)

basicly..... hundreds of years ago people came up with the math of how electricity works before they understood what was actually happening.

They had been solving equations using the (+) to (-) theory for so long that when they found out it actually flowed from (-) to (+) they didn't know what to do.

All of their textbooks and universities had been teaching the oposite theory for so long they decided to continue with the (+) to (-) theory.

It's hard to explain..... but it really doesn't matter which way the actual electrons flow..... it's the difference in potential between the terminals that make things happen.

It's all relative to charge differencial..... whether you have 10,000 holes and 10,000 electrons on two terminals or 10,000 electrons and 20,000 electrons...... the difference between the two terminals are the same..... 10,000 electrons.

[PrecisionBoost]

Ummm..... while I'm spitting out all this theory..... static charge.

Basicly if you rub your feet on a carpet you are charging yourself up.

Lets say you have managed to strip 100,000 electrons off your body.... and someone else has a net charge of zero (equal number of electrons and holes)

When you touch them..... you both get a shock.... because you've transfered electrons from their body to yours.

The amount transfered is exactly 50,000 electrons.

So.... you will have 50,000 holes left and your friend will now have 50,000 holes.

When two objects (people) touch each other their net charges equal out so both are identical.

So you started +100,000 they were 0 and after you touch them you are both +50,000

Now.... if you touch another person with a 0 charge.... you strip off 25,000 from them so your net charge is +25,000 and theirs is +25,000

Now if you go back to friend #1 who is +50,000 and touch him he will strip some electrons from you and you will both end up with a charge of +37,500

Hopefully you understand charge differencials now.... which should shed a little bit of light on the first two posts.

Oh..... if you want to give yourself a really good shock..... rub your feet on the carpet and touch the water faucet.

If you strip off 100,000 electrons and have 100,000 holes which gives you a +100,000 charge

If you touch someone with a 0 charge you only transfer 50,000 electrons

But if you touch an electrically conductive water pipe or faucet.... or even the ground on an electrical outlet you get a much better "zap" since the ground will bring you back to a 0 charge and transfer all 100,000 electrons back to you.

Basicly..... the world's supply of electrons is in the water..... when a power generation center makes power..... they connect their ground terminals to a gigantic electrode in the bottom of the nearest river, lake or sea.

Anyways..... this is way way way past your original question.... but I thought I'd post the true answer..... even if you don't understand it.

So....... NKG is correct.... all DIS systems create both a positive and negative spark.

[Audacity Racing]

an easy way to imagine it is this...


there are 30,000 people on a boat, all in the middle. when someone blows a whistle, 15,000 of them run to the side... the boat automatically tips to that side. in an effort to balance the system, the 15,000 from the middle run to the opposite side.


when the whistle blows again, the original 15,000 run to the side with thier friends. the boat starts tipping again, so the other group goes to the other-side to balance it.








the reason there is an "equalization" spark, is to keep the longevity of the dis system. holding massive chrages, though is the purpose of teh components, reduces their life span. by "equalizing" the system, the charge remains neutral for roughly 50% of the coil cycle duration.


one more thing you need to consider is this... there are TWO sparks firing at the same time. this is where the equalization comes from. the actual storage time of the electricity on the "negative" side (as called by common word) is such a minute amount of time that it does not adversely effect the components of the system.


check out the graphic





the red indicates the initial burst of energy released by the coil (assume everything you've ever heard about electricity for the moment). notice it travels to the sparkplug and creates the initial spark required to ignite the air/fuel. the spark then travels towards the ground, but in order to equalize the charge made by the coil, the electricity travels back through the other sparkplug, making a weakers spark, and traveling back to the coil. the praphic should explain a lot better why the system works the way it does.

[PrecisionBoost]

Thanks for the addition and diagram..... I know what I've said above will be hard for some people to understand.

With respect to the electronics end of things..... a waisted spark system like this is easier to make.... less componets.... less trigger info needed.

Basicly..... a waisted spark ignition system costs about 45% less money to manufacture than a four individual coil/driver system.

[Audacity Racing]

the hard part would be sepearating grounds with components that can absorb the voltage spike and prevent a back-flow of electricity (like a diode that would be beefy enough to stop the coil from discharging through the block).


as erfinder said... you could do it, but the cost wouldn't be worth it

[PrecisionBoost]

Yet another addition to make everyones eyes glaze over.....

The reason for a larger spark accross the compressed air/fuel cylinder is due to higher resistance levels.

The exhaust stroke cylinder is still very hot.... so it's easy for the spark to jump the gap between the electrode and ground...... therefore it has very little resistance compared to the other cylinder.

Now..... imagine the two cylinders as resistors in a circuit

Ignition voltage--------- cylinder 1-------cylinder 2 -------- ground

same as

Ignition voltage ---------- resistance 1 ----resistance 2 ------ ground

Now..... lets say we have 50,000 volts to play with from the coil

Lets say it's 10 times harder for the spark to jump accross cylinder 1 with the compressed air/fuel than it is to jump accross cylinder 2 (hot low compression air makes it easier to jump accross )

So..... res1 = 10 res2

Substitute into equation and we find that...

Ignition voltage ------ (10 Res2) ----- Res2 ----- ground

50,000 ------ 11 Res 2 ---gnd

So..... Resistance 2 gets (50,000/11)= 4545 volts accross it's spark plug

And therefore Resistance 1 gets 45,454 volts accross it's spark plug

I don't really know if it's 10 times harder..... but it's a fairly reasonable estimate.

So....... in a waisted spark system the cylinder with the compressed air/fuel will allways get the majority of the spark power since it creates a higher air gap resistance

Well.... now that I've put most of you to sleep....I will shut up for the time being.