What other mods can i do...?

MMamdouh · Post by **MMamdouh** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:15 pm

Ok that was one hell of an informative thread... only thing to add as anote to kinky... in out country we have an old saying that says :"learn how to land before you learn how to fly" and applying that to what you are trying to do i'd say: don't forget about a good brake upgrade.

i know you already got slotted rotors but if you are going to be running a 200HP machine on a track day i'd better have better brakes... something like what WooHoo got on his car.

good luck with your project.

MMamdouh

chronoti · Post by **chronoti** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:00 pm

Erfinder@PrecisionBoost wrote:You need to upgrade your ignition system.... MSD makes a number of decent products.

Better ignition will help you burn all that extra air and fuel your dumping in with the turbo..... without it .... your car will feel "soggy"

What is "soggy"? The oposite of responsive.

The car might not gain much peak horsepower but the throttle response will make it feel faster and give you more confidence.

I would also suggest the purchase of an aftermarket piggy back system such as the SMT-6..... there is some really decent deals on right now.... I think Tom and I will be getting a couple if not more.

So..... upgraded ignition..... upgraded fuel and ignition .... what else?

A really decent wideband is not a bad idea..... and a exhaust temp sensor would be a good thing to have.

Lightened flywheel..... better clutch (the stock one sucks...which you know allready )

If I were you I'd look into a grounding kit..... perhaps a performance radiator and metal fans ( since the turbo will be close and could melt the plastic )

Engine mounts, tranny mounts.

Port and polish might give you a few horsepower.... but I don't know if you need that much head work if your going with stock internals.

Head work really pays of on a naturally aspirated engine but a turbo will pretty much push through what ever you let it.

So.... stock head with 15psi would make the same power as a modified cylinder head at 13psi.

An MLS gasket is a must.

There are lots of other things....... you should list what you allready have or allready plan on purchasing.

for the smt6
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/specialoffer.asp

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:06 pm

Oh.... this whole "smaller valve" thing is the reason why turbo car cams don't have much lift.

The more lift.... the larger the port opening and the slower the port velocity.

In a naturally aspirated car increasing the lift increases the VE at mid and high RPM so installing aftermarket cams usually makes lots of power.

Volumetric efficency is simply the amount of actual air that gets into a cylinder.

So if our cylinders are 0.5 L each ( 2L divided by 4 cylinders ) and you fill 0.45 liters of the cylinder on an intake that means you have filled 90% of the cylinder.... so your VE is 90%

If you have lots of restriction you might only fill 0.3L of the 0.5L at high rpm so you only manage to get about 60% of the cylinder filled.

Turbo's are great equilizer......since they push more air than there was in the first place.

So if your car is running 15psi of boost and you have no restriction your actually stuffing 1.0L into a 0.5L cylinder

Thus your VE is 200% !!!!!

Now this never really happens.... at 15psi you might only get 75% of that air in there.... but still the result is that you stuff 0.75L into a 0.5L cylinder

so your VE is more like 150%

So smaller valves and less lift on a turbo doesn't matter.... by adding more pressure you can adjust the VE

So.... 10psi and large ports... lots of lift....

ambient ( 14.7psi) + boost (10psi) = 24.7psi

Multiply by VE cylinder head ( say 90% at 5000RPM ) = 22.23 psi

Divide by 14.7 = 1.51 ( 151% total VE )

Multiply by original volume (0.5L ) = 0.756L of air in the cylinder

Next we have 10 psi and a small port.... not much lift

24.7psi X VE cylinder head (say 65% at 5000RPM ) = 16.06 psi

divide by 14.7 = 1.09 ( 109% total VE )

multiply by 0.5L = 0.546L of air in the cylinder

To compensate..... we simply up the boost.... how about 18psi

(14.7 psi + 18psi ) X (0.65) = 21.26 psi

= 1.446 X 0.5 =0.723L ( 145% total VE )

So..... a head that allows a naturally aspirated VE of 90% would make roughly the same power at 10psi of boost as a head that only had a naturally aspirated VE of 65% at around 18psi

In the end.... it doesn't really matter whether you run 10psi or 18psi..... the same amount of air/fuel is going to get into the cylinder and you will end up making the same power.

Now.... I exagerated this heavily..... the VE between the stock head and a ported head probably isn't all that much.... perhaps 10% at high rpm (where as I used 35% in this example to make a point )

Other issues are that the 18psi engine will create more heat.... which will effect the air density (cold air is more dense) which will decrease power.

So if there is 10% difference in head VE then you might need 15% more boost to make up for it.

Hopefully you get the general idea and understand why Volumetric efficency only really matters on Natrually Aspirated vehicles and turbo engines that are trying to make maximum power.

In your case.... your engine can't handle maximum power.... so there really isn't much point in trying to make it more efficent

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:13 pm

mmamdouh wrote:Ok that was one hell of an informative thread... only thing to add as anote to kinky... in out country we have an old saying that says :"learn how to land before you learn how to fly" and applying that to what you are trying to do i'd say: don't forget about a good brake upgrade.

i know you already got slotted rotors but if you are going to be running a 200HP machine on a track day i'd better have better brakes... something like what WooHoo got on his car.

good luck with your project.

MMamdouh

Yeah i really should learn the car before i add any more mods once i get the turbo.. but i have no idea what i want for x-mas... ive freakin bought everything i want, except a motorcycle and my mom "wont contribute to my death" lol.

I really wish i could upgrade the brakes more.. i woulda done that long ago. I just need to do brake cooling ducts and ill be okay untill summer hits again. I dont push my brakes 100% on the track anymore anyways though..ive gone through too many brakes pads/rotors. Im gonna wait till i make my front air dam/splitter to do the brake cooling ducts though..which might end up being untill i get a body kit

daewooluvr · Post by **daewooluvr** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:58 pm

kinkyllama wrote:
mmamdouh wrote:Ok that was one hell of an informative thread... only thing to add as anote to kinky... in out country we have an old saying that says :"learn how to land before you learn how to fly" and applying that to what you are trying to do i'd say: don't forget about a good brake upgrade.

i know you already got slotted rotors but if you are going to be running a 200HP machine on a track day i'd better have better brakes... something like what WooHoo got on his car.

good luck with your project.

MMamdouh
Yeah i really should learn the car before i add any more mods once i get the turbo.. but i have no idea what i want for x-mas... ive freakin bought everything i want, except a motorcycle and my mom "wont contribute to my death" lol.

I really wish i could upgrade the brakes more.. i woulda done that long ago. I just need to do brake cooling ducts and ill be okay untill summer hits again. I dont push my brakes 100% on the track anymore anyways though..ive gone through too many brakes pads/rotors. Im gonna wait till i make my front air dam/splitter to do the brake cooling ducts though..which might end up being untill i get a body kit

Did ya do the stainless steel brake lines? I know they made a big difference for me.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:05 pm

I say go with some electronics..... SMT-6 piggyback..... MSD DIS-2 ignition.... exhaust temp sensor..... wideband air/fuel computer.... fuel pump....G-Tech pro meter (for measuring cornering G's and acceleration... which would be helpfull during practice.... since you can approach the corner at different angles and speeds to see what gives you the best results...... the lower the number of lateral G's the better traction you will have....and the more power you can apply )

How about some Toyo RA-1 tires

Hmmm..... there are lots of cool things out there.

I'm going to be upgrading my brakes as well..... I'm probably going to contact Willwood about making a custom set of aluminum hats so that I can reduce the weight of the rotors as well as make it a larger diameter.

I will most likely buy a set of their nice aluminum four pot calipers and make a bracket (or have them make one) to mount the new calipers.

I definitly will have to have decent brakes if I'm going to run over 200WHP.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:14 pm

Erfinder@PrecisionBoost wrote:I say go with some electronics..... SMT-6 piggyback..... MSD DIS-2 ignition.... exhaust temp sensor..... wideband air/fuel computer.... fuel pump....G-Tech pro meter (for measuring cornering G's and acceleration... which would be helpfull during practice.... since you can approach the corner at different angles and speeds to see what gives you the best results...... the lower the number of lateral G's the better traction you will have....and the more power you can apply )

How about some Toyo RA-1 tires

Hmmm..... there are lots of cool things out there.

I'm going to be upgrading my brakes as well..... I'm probably going to contact Willwood about making a custom set of aluminum hats so that I can reduce the weight of the rotors as well as make it a larger diameter.

I will most likely buy a set of their nice aluminum four pot calipers and make a bracket (or have them make one) to mount the new calipers.

I definitly will have to have decent brakes if I'm going to run over 200WHP.

Im looking into R compond tires now. I have a falkens azenis on now and if i can sell my hankook competion tires then im getting Rs. Toyos will be my first choice as i have big discounts on them.

I have all those computers except MSD DIS-2 ignition, wideband, and upgraded fuel pump.

Would i even benifit from the fuel pump?

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:23 am

To tell you the truth.... I don't know what the stock fuel pump can put out.... but 200WHP is nearly double the power from stock so that means your stock fuel pump will need to put out twice as much fuel.

I figured I would get to that when I finally do the swap.... I plan on monitoring fuel pressure during the testing to see when exactly it runs out of steam.

I'm about 99% sure I will need a new pump... and I'm converting to a return system ( our cars currently have returnless fuel systems)

I will end up using my Leganza fuel rail if I can get everything to fit good.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:51 am

daewooluvr wrote:
Did ya do the stainless steel brake lines? I know they made a big difference for me.

Hows that make a difference? I can see it helping like a firmer pedal feel but not overall braking performance

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:52 am

Erfinder@PrecisionBoost wrote:To tell you the truth.... I don't know what the stock fuel pump can put out.... but 200WHP is nearly double the power from stock so that means your stock fuel pump will need to put out twice as much fuel.

I figured I would get to that when I finally do the swap.... I plan on monitoring fuel pressure during the testing to see when exactly it runs out of steam.

I'm about 99% sure I will need a new pump... and I'm converting to a return system ( our cars currently have returnless fuel systems)

I will end up using my Leganza fuel rail if I can get everything to fit good.

Hopfully i can live off the stock fuel pump. Ill probably be making closer to 185whp.. 200being optimistic.

What lbs/hr injectors will you be running?

I know you wanna build a 600+hp motor.. but you dont plan on doing that off the bat do you?

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:22 am

No.... the 700hp+ engine will be based on the Leganza 2.2L.... which will end up somewhere between 2.4L to 2.5L..... that will be a long term project that's probably going to take two or three years.

I have a practicly brand new Forenza engine in my garage that I got off EBAY for around $300 USD.... that's the one I'm going to throw in my Optra.

I'm going to have a 2.0L Turbo engine, Suspension and Tires/Rims for the summer months..... then I will put back my stock engine, suspension, tires/rims for each winter.

Winter here is from October/November to March/April

We've allready had several inches of snow and temperatures around -25 degrees celcius..... but it's warmed up the last couple days and the snow is now all gone.... going to be around +8 degrees celcius tommorow ( roughly mid to high 50's)

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:30 am

kinkyllama wrote: What lbs/hr injectors will you be running?

Well.... I don't know yet because I haven't 100% figured out what I'm going to do yet as far as this Forenza motor.

Either I will go with stock rods/pistons with upgraded ARP bolts and a custom thickness metal Cometic gasket to decrease compression and go for something in the range of 220WHP ........................ or I will throw in some low compression forged pistons, C20LET connecting rods w/ARP bolts and go for more power ( 300whp )

I think I want to keep the forged JE's I have right now for my big project.... so it's an issue of what I want to do about the pistons.

I could get another set of forged pistons..... but I was thinking it might be nice to try the simple approach of nearly stock internals like Intimidator did.

Another problem is that my T3/T4 was purchased with 300WHP or more in mind..... but the compressor case is so huge that it doesn't fit onto the cast iron turbo manifold I got from Tom.

So.... if I want to use this big T3/T4 I have to go with more power and get a 3/8" spacer made to move the manifold out a bit.

I could however get a smaller turbo.... like a T3 super 60 or a small T3/T4 and it will fit without the spacer.

So either way..... I have to spend some money.... either I get pistons and a spacer and go for 300WHP+ or I get a smaller turbo and a thicker head gasket.

It's a tough decision...... the turbo I have is no good for my 700whp engine.... it's way too small.

I will have to figure out what to do..... so many options.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:33 am

I've been looking at the wonderfull GT28RS ...... as it can be purchased with a T3 flange...... it's a perfect turbo for our engine.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:03 pm

Erfinder@PrecisionBoost wrote:I've been looking at the wonderfull GT28RS ...... as it can be purchased with a T3 flange...... it's a perfect turbo for our engine.

Isnt that a little big though? I thought that'd be better for more like 300whp.

So its going to be a long while before you get the turbo up and running on your optra then..dang.

Do you have any suspension upgrades in mind other than what Chips doing? He said they would probably have anti-sway bars before the years end (im gonna send him an email and check up on that)...but the kw suspension will still be awhile

I'll be happy w/ anti-sway bars though.. at least then my tires will stop being chewed up by the frame of the car; the fenders already been shredded.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:35 am

Antisway bar will be something I'm going to be looking into this winter.... I hate my suspension setup.

Yes.... there are other posibilities for suspension.... I belive our suspension shares components with another European Opel.... but I won't know until I buy parts and try them out..... it's possible that only the front suspension is identical.

I don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet..... I'd hate for someone to go buy some stuff on a "guess" and find out they waisted their money.

If they fit...... we are good to party.... lots of coilover kits.... adjustable suspension.... rally suspension..... anything you could wish for.