should i go Supercharger, or Turbocharger on my Leganza 2000
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Daew0Leganza
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should i go Supercharger, or Turbocharger on my Leganza 2000
labor is give and take 200 difference out of 1200 for installation, should i spend 3500 on a Supercharger and intercooler, or should i get a top of the line turbo kit for around 2000 instead?
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PrecisionBoost
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Daew0Leganza
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10k 
no man that is to much.
You leganza is a 2.0 or 2.2 l like my nubira (2.0)
need;
1- t4 turbo or t3
2-gas injector
3- "cebolla" of nitro -0 to 10 -(don't know how you call this part in english)
4- all the pipes
5- turbo gauge
6- an eclipse or starion or conquest intercooler (need to make it fit in front of the radiator)
good setting and "voala" no use more that 5psi w\ this turbo. You will not need even a apex ecu or a microtech
w\ labor spens this will cost 2k to 3.5k all depens of the parts. :twisted:
no man that is to much.You leganza is a 2.0 or 2.2 l like my nubira (2.0)
need;
1- t4 turbo or t3
2-gas injector
3- "cebolla" of nitro -0 to 10 -(don't know how you call this part in english)
4- all the pipes
5- turbo gauge
6- an eclipse or starion or conquest intercooler (need to make it fit in front of the radiator)
good setting and "voala" no use more that 5psi w\ this turbo. You will not need even a apex ecu or a microtech
w\ labor spens this will cost 2k to 3.5k all depens of the parts. :twisted:
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PrecisionBoost
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I imagine there should be a RRFPR ( rising rate fuel pressure regulator ) in there somewhere.
You would also need to look at a new radiator to take the extra heat, fuel pump and an upgraded ignition system.
I'm sure that it could be done for way less than 10K but I'm saying that if you want it done right with 12 to 15psi, all new parts and decent fuel management you will probably have a hard time spending anything less.
If you did it all yourself with used parts and ECU "hacks" such as bleeding the MAP sensor you could probably do it for less than $1000 but the question is if it would be reliable and not blow your engine two weeks after the install.
5psi is next to nothing....and there is alot to be said about research and development with regards to getting the turbo/piping/intercooler system to have a high efficency.
Who knows.... a hack job with 5psi might only net you an extra 25hp to 30hp.
To me that would be a huge waist of money... you'd be better off with a nitrous setup for way less.
On the other hand if you spent $10K you would have a nice gain in power in the range of 125hp to 150hp and it would be dependable because it would be designed without cutting corners.
You would also need to look at a new radiator to take the extra heat, fuel pump and an upgraded ignition system.
I'm sure that it could be done for way less than 10K but I'm saying that if you want it done right with 12 to 15psi, all new parts and decent fuel management you will probably have a hard time spending anything less.
If you did it all yourself with used parts and ECU "hacks" such as bleeding the MAP sensor you could probably do it for less than $1000 but the question is if it would be reliable and not blow your engine two weeks after the install.
5psi is next to nothing....and there is alot to be said about research and development with regards to getting the turbo/piping/intercooler system to have a high efficency.
Who knows.... a hack job with 5psi might only net you an extra 25hp to 30hp.
To me that would be a huge waist of money... you'd be better off with a nitrous setup for way less.
On the other hand if you spent $10K you would have a nice gain in power in the range of 125hp to 150hp and it would be dependable because it would be designed without cutting corners.
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Daew0Leganza
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PrecisionBoost
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If the turbo setup is done correctly without cutting corners it will be very reliable and the chances of blowing your motor are very low.
If you cheap out and cut corners then there certainly is the possiblility of blowing the motor from failed components.
For example you might set it up with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator and find out that at 5000RPM your stock injectors or fuel pump are maxed out.
Since your cheap your not on a Dyno running a wide band 02 sensor so you run into a "lean" condition where detonation starts to occur.
Detonation is when the air/fuel mixture explodes inside your cylinder like a diesel engine. ( destroys pistons,valves,cylinder wall )
Since your gas engine wasn't designed to take detonation there are usually knock sensors to shut down the engine but they don't allways save the car from terminal damage.(such as a melted piston)
Basicly your Leganza wasn't designed to have boost so the ECU will freak out and shut down if it sees a positive pressure (boost).....as such you have to "hack" it to make it think that everything is ok.
If you purchase a more expensive fuel management computer it will keep the ECU happy while it adjusts and monitors all sensor data.
To me the list of components required in a decent Turbo setup for the 2.0L and 2.2L engines are as follows:
1) Garrett T28 or T25 ball bearing turbo ( T25,T28 bolts up to #2)(can be found on an SR20DET)
2) modified exhaust manifold from a 2.0L turbo sunbird (should fit Nubira,Leganza engine )
3) Blow off valve
4) High performance radiator
5) High performance ignition system (multi discharge is nice)
6) Intercooler
7) High flow rate injectors
8 ) High flow rate fuel pump or booster pump
9) Adjustable fuel regulator (not rising rate)
10) Piggyback or Standalone fuel management computer
11) 2bar or 3bar Map Sensor (2bar good until 14psi....3bar good to 28psi)
12) two IAT sensors (one before intercooler one after )
13) dual temp gauges
14) turbo timer
15) Boost Gauge
16) Custom mandrel bent exhaust components with high performance low restriction muffler
17) High performance intake filter with custom intake pipe
18 ) Water resevoir, windshield washer pump, spray nozzle (for cooling down intercooler on hot days....increases efficency which increases power and helps keep the engine away from detonation)
19) Mid performance clutch (stock will probably slip with extra power)
20) Limited Slip differential ( Quaife, Phantom )
21) Air/Fuel mixture gauge
22) Larger throttle body plate (could also bore the factory one out)
23) Spark plugs (may have to fiddle with temperature rating)
24) New ARP bolt package (con rod, head, crank bearings ect )
25) New forged low compression pistons (possibly C20LET pistons?)
26) High performance oil
27) High performance Spark plug wires
28 ) Lightened and strengthened fly wheel
29) Oil cooler
30) Custom coolant and oil lines for the turbo
31) New engine mounts ( harder material helps put the power to the ground and takes up factory "slack" in mounts )
32) Most important thing.......... hours and hours tuning time on a Dyno with a wide band O2 sensor
33) ugly stickers (good for an extra 50hp
)
I'm sure there are a couple of other things I missed but this is my idea of a decent turbo setup.... which would most certainly exceed $10K.
If you can't afford this kit then you probably can't afford to replace a damaged engine so you should look in other directions to boost performance ( like a wet nitrous setup )
I'm not a fan of Nitrous because you allways have to pay to refill your bottles but it's easy to install and doesn't typically require changing out internal components like pistons.
A wet nitrous system injects both fuel and nitrous so all the fuel mixing is done for you (no special fuel management needed)
Nitrous tends to cool the intake air so it helps keep the engine from detonation.
Don't get me wrong.... your engine will certainly work harder and temperatures will rise quickly during use but it's not a continuous power so the engine can "rest" in between nitrous shots. (unlike a turbo system)
If you cheap out and cut corners then there certainly is the possiblility of blowing the motor from failed components.
For example you might set it up with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator and find out that at 5000RPM your stock injectors or fuel pump are maxed out.
Since your cheap your not on a Dyno running a wide band 02 sensor so you run into a "lean" condition where detonation starts to occur.
Detonation is when the air/fuel mixture explodes inside your cylinder like a diesel engine. ( destroys pistons,valves,cylinder wall )
Since your gas engine wasn't designed to take detonation there are usually knock sensors to shut down the engine but they don't allways save the car from terminal damage.(such as a melted piston)
Basicly your Leganza wasn't designed to have boost so the ECU will freak out and shut down if it sees a positive pressure (boost).....as such you have to "hack" it to make it think that everything is ok.
If you purchase a more expensive fuel management computer it will keep the ECU happy while it adjusts and monitors all sensor data.
To me the list of components required in a decent Turbo setup for the 2.0L and 2.2L engines are as follows:
1) Garrett T28 or T25 ball bearing turbo ( T25,T28 bolts up to #2)(can be found on an SR20DET)
2) modified exhaust manifold from a 2.0L turbo sunbird (should fit Nubira,Leganza engine )
3) Blow off valve
4) High performance radiator
5) High performance ignition system (multi discharge is nice)
6) Intercooler
7) High flow rate injectors
8 ) High flow rate fuel pump or booster pump
9) Adjustable fuel regulator (not rising rate)
10) Piggyback or Standalone fuel management computer
11) 2bar or 3bar Map Sensor (2bar good until 14psi....3bar good to 28psi)
12) two IAT sensors (one before intercooler one after )
13) dual temp gauges
14) turbo timer
15) Boost Gauge
16) Custom mandrel bent exhaust components with high performance low restriction muffler
17) High performance intake filter with custom intake pipe
18 ) Water resevoir, windshield washer pump, spray nozzle (for cooling down intercooler on hot days....increases efficency which increases power and helps keep the engine away from detonation)
19) Mid performance clutch (stock will probably slip with extra power)
20) Limited Slip differential ( Quaife, Phantom )
21) Air/Fuel mixture gauge
22) Larger throttle body plate (could also bore the factory one out)
23) Spark plugs (may have to fiddle with temperature rating)
24) New ARP bolt package (con rod, head, crank bearings ect )
25) New forged low compression pistons (possibly C20LET pistons?)
26) High performance oil
27) High performance Spark plug wires
28 ) Lightened and strengthened fly wheel
29) Oil cooler
30) Custom coolant and oil lines for the turbo
31) New engine mounts ( harder material helps put the power to the ground and takes up factory "slack" in mounts )
32) Most important thing.......... hours and hours tuning time on a Dyno with a wide band O2 sensor
33) ugly stickers (good for an extra 50hp
)I'm sure there are a couple of other things I missed but this is my idea of a decent turbo setup.... which would most certainly exceed $10K.
If you can't afford this kit then you probably can't afford to replace a damaged engine so you should look in other directions to boost performance ( like a wet nitrous setup )
I'm not a fan of Nitrous because you allways have to pay to refill your bottles but it's easy to install and doesn't typically require changing out internal components like pistons.
A wet nitrous system injects both fuel and nitrous so all the fuel mixing is done for you (no special fuel management needed)
Nitrous tends to cool the intake air so it helps keep the engine from detonation.
Don't get me wrong.... your engine will certainly work harder and temperatures will rise quickly during use but it's not a continuous power so the engine can "rest" in between nitrous shots. (unlike a turbo system)
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Daew0Leganza
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well thats everything to talk about for a turbo set up, how bout a procharger?, can u still get detonation even if u have a procharger? Can an ECU company modify the stock ECU on the Leganza? Can a 2.0L Sunbird Exhaust Manifold Fit on a Daewoo Leganza 2.2L?, is Getting the best Wastegate and BOV off Valve money could buy good enough to call it a day? Will i be able to run a high end Turbo Kit to be as stable as an SRT-4?
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PrecisionBoost
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Supercharger is pretty much the same as the turbo if you use a centrifugal SC.
Most superchargers are roots type so they require the fabrication of an entirely new intake manifold (expensive....not something your average guy could get made )
Detonation can happen any time your intake air temperature gets too high or when you don't have enough fuel ( running lean).
Superchargers and turbos compress the air which heats it up..... so you might get a 140 degree air temp instead of the ambient 90 degrees.
Intercoolers can help this but they are not typically 100% efficent.
A cheap or used one may only get 65% efficency where as a good one might reach as high as 95%
So say your intake temp is 140 and ambient is 90
A 65% eff intercooler will give you 123 degree output temp so that's still pretty hot.
A 95% eff intercooler will give you a 93 degree output temp which is very close to ambiant temp.
The odds of the 123 degree air creating detonation are higher than if it's only 93 degrees so intercoolers are very important in designing a reliable turbo charged engine.
Plus the 93 deg intake air will give you more power than the 123deg air.
As per the sunbird manifold..... it would be nice if it fit (or even if it just needed holes to be redrilled)..... I need someone to take a picture of their exhaust manifold (or gasket) and take some dimensional readings between cylinders.
Given the Sunbird is an 8V head it might not work with your 16V head but you never know until someone actually gets the two together and tries them.
Alternatively the 16V head on a C20LET ( from Europe ) might be an exact match to the Daewoo heads.....but again it would have to be checked to see how close they are.
The Wastegate on a T25 is internal so you don't really need another one unless you go to a different turbo.
The BOV and Wastegate are probably one of the cheapest components in the kit.... the expensive thing is the fuel system ( injectors,pump,fuel regulator, electronic fuel mangement) and the turbo itself (unless you buy a used one)
If you spent the money a good turbo system would be as stable as an SRT-4 without a doubt..... it you go cheap and cut corners there is no way of telling how things will work out.
You could put a $1000 turbo system together with all used parts and have absolutely no problems what so ever..... but on the otherhand you could send a piston through your oil pan the first time you fire up the car.
I've heard lots of stories of guys firing up their cars without a dyno and wideband O2 sensor setup where they destroy their engine within 1 minute of starting it up.
Some have had screwed up wastegate settings or faulty vacume setups(one guy I talked to accidentally had his turbo putting out 32psi....it made lots of power until the #2 connecting rod broke... which destroyed the head,piston,cylinder walls and crankshaft....he said he almost cried )
Others have been lucky with extreemly lean conditions resulting in overheating and detonation ( the one guy who posted pics had a hole 2" wide in the top of his piston and the cylinder wall was scorched and pitted all the way up one side)
This overheating also screwed up the temper on nearly all the engine components so it required a complete rebuild.
Even if you do get a reliable system who is to say that your engine will take the long term stress put on it.... and you might as well keep in mind that your going to have to replace rings and bearings more often due to the increase in pressure put on the components when you double the power.
Most superchargers are roots type so they require the fabrication of an entirely new intake manifold (expensive....not something your average guy could get made )
Detonation can happen any time your intake air temperature gets too high or when you don't have enough fuel ( running lean).
Superchargers and turbos compress the air which heats it up..... so you might get a 140 degree air temp instead of the ambient 90 degrees.
Intercoolers can help this but they are not typically 100% efficent.
A cheap or used one may only get 65% efficency where as a good one might reach as high as 95%
So say your intake temp is 140 and ambient is 90
A 65% eff intercooler will give you 123 degree output temp so that's still pretty hot.
A 95% eff intercooler will give you a 93 degree output temp which is very close to ambiant temp.
The odds of the 123 degree air creating detonation are higher than if it's only 93 degrees so intercoolers are very important in designing a reliable turbo charged engine.
Plus the 93 deg intake air will give you more power than the 123deg air.
As per the sunbird manifold..... it would be nice if it fit (or even if it just needed holes to be redrilled)..... I need someone to take a picture of their exhaust manifold (or gasket) and take some dimensional readings between cylinders.
Given the Sunbird is an 8V head it might not work with your 16V head but you never know until someone actually gets the two together and tries them.
Alternatively the 16V head on a C20LET ( from Europe ) might be an exact match to the Daewoo heads.....but again it would have to be checked to see how close they are.
The Wastegate on a T25 is internal so you don't really need another one unless you go to a different turbo.
The BOV and Wastegate are probably one of the cheapest components in the kit.... the expensive thing is the fuel system ( injectors,pump,fuel regulator, electronic fuel mangement) and the turbo itself (unless you buy a used one)
If you spent the money a good turbo system would be as stable as an SRT-4 without a doubt..... it you go cheap and cut corners there is no way of telling how things will work out.
You could put a $1000 turbo system together with all used parts and have absolutely no problems what so ever..... but on the otherhand you could send a piston through your oil pan the first time you fire up the car.
I've heard lots of stories of guys firing up their cars without a dyno and wideband O2 sensor setup where they destroy their engine within 1 minute of starting it up.
Some have had screwed up wastegate settings or faulty vacume setups(one guy I talked to accidentally had his turbo putting out 32psi....it made lots of power until the #2 connecting rod broke... which destroyed the head,piston,cylinder walls and crankshaft....he said he almost cried )
Others have been lucky with extreemly lean conditions resulting in overheating and detonation ( the one guy who posted pics had a hole 2" wide in the top of his piston and the cylinder wall was scorched and pitted all the way up one side)
This overheating also screwed up the temper on nearly all the engine components so it required a complete rebuild.
Even if you do get a reliable system who is to say that your engine will take the long term stress put on it.... and you might as well keep in mind that your going to have to replace rings and bearings more often due to the increase in pressure put on the components when you double the power.
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Daew0Leganza
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how bout if i add 2 1030CFM fans on the intercooler would it help a lot?, should i just buy a car that is already turboed and change the turbo, wastegate, and bov? 370cc Fuel injectors with a Walbro 255Litre fuel pump and call it good to go? do u recommend me getting a procharger with 2 high flowing fans to prevent detonation running 93 premium on Bosch Platnium 4+ plugs? Will not getting an Engine Management System such as Air/fuel ratio be necessary? How do i prevent making my piston a projectile? How often do i have to change the rods? I also have an Xtremeflow.com Cat and an Aero-turbine.com muffler which is suppose to keep temps on a turbo down from 800 to 1200 degrees, did i plan correctly or should i just not risk the chance of scraping the car?
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PrecisionBoost
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Here is some more useless math stuff for you to ponder.
Intercooler #1 = 14" X 7" = 0.68 square feet of surface area
Intercooler #2 = 24" X 10" = 1.67 square feet of surface area
Here is the amount of CFM that naturally goes through an Intercooler at various speeds.........
Speed...........Intercooler #1..............Intercooler #2
15MPH..............898 CFM.......................2200CFM
30MPH.............1796 CFM......................4400 CFM
45MPH.............2694 CFM......................6600 CFM
60MPH.............3592 CFM......................8800 CFM
So two 1030 CFM fans would be a fairly good addition to the standard cooling but I'm not sure if they would help at high speed.
Cooling efficency is based upon size,restriction and surface area.
As you can see Intercooler #2 has more than double the amount of CFM compared to Intercooler #1 but because Intercooler #1 is smaller it will have less internal surface area drag so it makes up for it's small size by creating less drag.
There is a magic number based upon the size,internal resistance, surface area, turbo pressure and motor displacement but I can't seem to find any decent info the the calculations.
So as usual to get the best intercooler you must try a few and check the inlet temp vs outlet temp to see which one is best.
Basicly a bigger intercooler isn't allways the best intercooler......let's say that a perfect intercooler has a 1.0 cu ft surface area and reaches 95% efficency. So on a 90 degree day with 140 degree intake temp off the turbo you would end up with a 92.5 degree temp on the outlet
If you go to a 2.0 cu ft intercooler you may get a 91 degree temp outlet temperature but the internal drag is way higher because you have increased the size of the intercooler.
As a result you will cause an uneeded restriction in the flow path which can result in increased internal pressure in the intercooler and unwanted extra large blow off valve volumes ( since the extra pressure built up in the intercooler will have to go out of the blow off valve with the pressure built up in the intake pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body)
So in short the fans might help a little but if you have the right sized intercooler you won't need the fans and can use that money on something more worth while.
Intercooler #1 = 14" X 7" = 0.68 square feet of surface area
Intercooler #2 = 24" X 10" = 1.67 square feet of surface area
Here is the amount of CFM that naturally goes through an Intercooler at various speeds.........
Speed...........Intercooler #1..............Intercooler #2
15MPH..............898 CFM.......................2200CFM
30MPH.............1796 CFM......................4400 CFM
45MPH.............2694 CFM......................6600 CFM
60MPH.............3592 CFM......................8800 CFM
So two 1030 CFM fans would be a fairly good addition to the standard cooling but I'm not sure if they would help at high speed.
Cooling efficency is based upon size,restriction and surface area.
As you can see Intercooler #2 has more than double the amount of CFM compared to Intercooler #1 but because Intercooler #1 is smaller it will have less internal surface area drag so it makes up for it's small size by creating less drag.
There is a magic number based upon the size,internal resistance, surface area, turbo pressure and motor displacement but I can't seem to find any decent info the the calculations.
So as usual to get the best intercooler you must try a few and check the inlet temp vs outlet temp to see which one is best.
Basicly a bigger intercooler isn't allways the best intercooler......let's say that a perfect intercooler has a 1.0 cu ft surface area and reaches 95% efficency. So on a 90 degree day with 140 degree intake temp off the turbo you would end up with a 92.5 degree temp on the outlet
If you go to a 2.0 cu ft intercooler you may get a 91 degree temp outlet temperature but the internal drag is way higher because you have increased the size of the intercooler.
As a result you will cause an uneeded restriction in the flow path which can result in increased internal pressure in the intercooler and unwanted extra large blow off valve volumes ( since the extra pressure built up in the intercooler will have to go out of the blow off valve with the pressure built up in the intake pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body)
So in short the fans might help a little but if you have the right sized intercooler you won't need the fans and can use that money on something more worth while.
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Daew0Leganza
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PrecisionBoost
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Lots of guys like the T3/T4 but the T25/T28 is just as good if you get the ball bearing type ( like the Nissan Skyline)
I like the T25/T28 because both bolt up to my 2.0L Turbo which has a stock non-ball bearing T25 (oil film sleeve bearing)
The BOV is not a critical component....buy something decent but don't go crazy....save your money for more important things like fuel pressure regulators (rising rate)
The primary purpose of a blow off valve is to keep the Turbo from "stalling".
Between shifts all the pressure being pushed by the turbo builds up (as the throttle body plate closes when you take your foot off the gas during shifting)
The Turbo will do all kinds of funny things including stalling if there is too much pressure between the turbine output and throttle body plate.
The BOV simply purges that pressure during shifts so that the Turbine stays spooled up at high speed.
So you can get by without a BOV but your car will run like crap ( heavy turbo lag and uneven pressure spikes)
So really a BOV is just a valve that opens up between shifts to let out the air.
Some people have the pressurized air go back into the pre-turbo intake so as to increase spooling speed of the turbo.
On the other hand having the BOV vent into the engine compartment gives you that cool "pssst" sound between shifts.
So how you do it depends on what you like more....... do you want better performance (vent to intake) or do you want it for "show" (vent to atmosphere)
I personally like performance but I love car sounds so I would vent to the atmosphere.
I even thought about putting a hole in the hood for the vent to make it louder and more intimidating.
I like the T25/T28 because both bolt up to my 2.0L Turbo which has a stock non-ball bearing T25 (oil film sleeve bearing)
The BOV is not a critical component....buy something decent but don't go crazy....save your money for more important things like fuel pressure regulators (rising rate)
The primary purpose of a blow off valve is to keep the Turbo from "stalling".
Between shifts all the pressure being pushed by the turbo builds up (as the throttle body plate closes when you take your foot off the gas during shifting)
The Turbo will do all kinds of funny things including stalling if there is too much pressure between the turbine output and throttle body plate.
The BOV simply purges that pressure during shifts so that the Turbine stays spooled up at high speed.
So you can get by without a BOV but your car will run like crap ( heavy turbo lag and uneven pressure spikes)
So really a BOV is just a valve that opens up between shifts to let out the air.
Some people have the pressurized air go back into the pre-turbo intake so as to increase spooling speed of the turbo.
On the other hand having the BOV vent into the engine compartment gives you that cool "pssst" sound between shifts.
So how you do it depends on what you like more....... do you want better performance (vent to intake) or do you want it for "show" (vent to atmosphere)
I personally like performance but I love car sounds so I would vent to the atmosphere.
I even thought about putting a hole in the hood for the vent to make it louder and more intimidating.