The original daewootech forum

Chip · Post by **Chip** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:00 am

kinkyllama wrote:Wait so Chip, if you turn off the key three times the code isnt stored anymore?

Well, sort of. If you replicate the situation three separate times and the misfire monitor passes each time, the CEL will extinguish and the code will clear from history. However, if the situation is not replicated or monitor does not pass, the CEL will stay in history for 80 drive cycles. I hope that's not too confusing, but the ECM has to be very careful in dealing with misfire due to CARB regulations, so it makes the monitoring and the rules of it all very difficult.

as i understand the crank position sensor got nothing to do with the UD pully, the sensor detects crank motion from the sproket gear at the back of the pully not the pully itself.

This is exactly right. There is a hall effect sensor that is "looking" at the teeth of the timing belt pulley on the crank. The ECM has a baseline map of what the signature of these teeth looks like. While the crank is spinning, the ECM is monitoring the real-time map and comparing it to the baseline. If the ECM detects enough of a deviation from the baseline map then it is reported as a misfire. If there are enough misfires in a given period of time the ECM will light the CEL. If there are a severe amount of misfires in that time period the CEL will blink, indicating what the ECM interprets as catalyst damaging misfire. My thought is that the UD pulley disrupts the balance of the crankshaft at very high speeds, causing vibration of the crank that the ECM sees as misfire at the timing belt pulley teeth. Hope this helps explain the misfire monitoring and how difficult it is to monitor and how easy it is to disrupt it.

-Chip

GsiTurbo · Post by **GsiTurbo** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:17 am

This is a very good explanation Chip, but at this time this is only a theory. The other vehicles in use that have the UD pulley installed have not develop any sort of CEL at all, as we have inquired with the owners.

My thought is that the UD pulley disrupts the balance of the crankshaft at very high speeds, causing vibration of the crank that the ECM sees as misfire at the timing belt pulley teeth.

Both the factory pulley and the UD pulley are zero balanced, if the engine was of old desing, externally balanced or with balance shafts, this could be pretty much a very probable issue, but I am a little hesitant to jump into conclusions at this point.

Kinky => when you were installing the pulley, was there any rust on the mating surface of the crank gear? If the CEL is indeed being caused by the UD Pulley, non-true installation could cause that. When you said the light came on on high speeds...do you mean high road speeds, or high engine speeds? The Optra engine has the rev limited at 6500rpm - when is your engine cutting out. For example, ECM Erfinder installed on his Optra from US Spec automatic Forenza has the rev limiter at 6250.

Tom

tango · Post by **tango** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:19 am

kinkyllama wrote:If its a sensor issue why would it only come on at 100+?

and whats the difference when the CEL blinks and when its on non-stop?

I have an intermittent CEL on my car when I hit wide open throttle at high speed or when going up a hill. I pulled the code and I got oxygen sensor and throttle position sensor codes. EVERY time. It didn't affect driveability or anything just the light coming on.

If it's a loose sensor connector then perhaps at high speed vibration it may cause a jiggle of some sort. This may seem simplistic but I've had the same thing happen with an intake air temperature sensor that wasn't tightly connected. And to a lesser degree, I once had my "door-ajar" light come on for no reason when I accelerated. Turned out to be light switch connector wire in the trunk developing a naked spot and grounding on the body. The car's movement swung it back and forth so flickering the light on and off.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:55 am

360 Dynamics wrote: Kinky => when you were installing the pulley, was there any rust on the mating surface of the crank gear? If the CEL is indeed being caused by the UD Pulley, non-true installation could cause that. When you said the light came on on high speeds...do you mean high road speeds, or high engine speeds? The Optra engine has the rev limited at 6500rpm - when is your engine cutting out.

No rust.. everything looked good.

I mean high road speeds 100mph is about where it comes on everytime, always before 105. I dont think it has anything to do with the RPMS cuz ill put it down to 3rd... go up to 6100 rpms then i shift to 4th and at 100-105 it comes on about 40% of the time now. One time it was even in 5th gear and it came on around 100-102mph.

360 Dynamics wrote: For example, ECM Erfinder installed on his Optra from US Spec automatic Forenza has the rev limiter at 6250.

Tom

Wait what? I was told that redline for the auto forenza was 7200rpms *or somewhere around there* from someone on suzuki-forums

MMamdouh · Post by **MMamdouh** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:12 am

kinkyllama wrote:
mmamdouh wrote: Kinky: how exactly did you install the UD pully you got from Tom?

MMamdouh
...the right way? lol. How am i supposed to answer this...
Its was really easy and there was no way to mess it up... ive check everything and its all on good.

i was under the impresson that the UD pully is swapping the OEM pully of a standard 1.6 DOHC daewoo engine but on the pics Tom posted i saw no sprocket on it so i was expecting a sprocket swap within the UD installation process so the answer i expected was one of two:

1- no sprocket swap required at all... it is a straigt forward job (that is your answer) and at this point the crank sensor is reading revs from the pully itself or from a separate sproket that is still on the crank shaft when you removed the OEM pully... i got no real knowledge concerning your engine so i am guess here.

2- i had to swap the sproket from the OEM pully to the UD pully and at this point you will be confirming my theory that the UD pully got nothing to do with the crank sensor mechanism whatsoever and your problem is elsewhere.

MMamdouh

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:41 pm

When I threw on the Automatic Suzuki Forenza ECU I hit the fuel cut at 6250RPM... I hit it three times on the Dyno.

I haven't had any problems related to my UD pulley in any way shape or form.... I have to think your CEL is unrelated to the pulley install.

My Suzuki ECU freaks out because I don't have an auto tranny..... so it throws a CEL right away.... but it drives fine so I'm not worried ( idles really high when cold but that's the only issue)

My Check Engine Light says solid for a day or two then it flashes at me for a while and then goes back to being solid.

I'm sure the car is running perfectly so I'm assuming that the flashing is the ECU's way of trying to get your attension.

Needless to say it allways goes away when I reset the ECU.

After seeing the Suzuki ECU does not make any more power than the Optra ECU I have decided to take out the Suzuki ECU..... so I no longer have any sort of CEL.

You can buy cheap OBD code scanners for around $60 so I'd suggest you go out and get one.... it would be cheaper than having someone charging you for scanning the ECU and you will be able to read it out when you have the problem.

Chip · Post by **Chip** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:46 pm

If you have a flashing CEL it is always related to catalyst or engine damaging misfire. There is no other condition that will cause the CEL to flash. Now there are instances when the misfire is being misdetected at the timing belt pulley by the crank sensor and causing the ECM to set the CEL. This is the condition that I've been mentioning as my suspicion of what is happening in Kinky's car. If his CEL is flashing, it is because the ECM believes there is misfire, either because there really is or because it is falsely detecting it.

-Chip

MMamdouh · Post by **MMamdouh** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:10 am

HMMM that explains why the CEL didn't come on when i had a bad TPS... the car did not missfire during that.

the CEL did come on when the MAP sensor vacuum line fell off... sputtering and missfiring was all day long.

MMamdouh

www.forenzamotorsports.co · Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:18 am

I do not know how much labor was involved Kinky but you could always toss the OEM pulley back on..re-set the computer and do your thing and see what happens. If you take the cost of code readers, $ if you pay to get it read properly (at a dealer) or just your time & concern in this matter it may be worth a try.

I'm sure none of us with 2.0's want it to be the pully because it is a great concept but a few hours time and you may know.

Scott

tango · Post by **tango** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:18 am

Chip wrote:If you have a flashing CEL it is always related to catalyst or engine damaging misfire. There is no other condition that will cause the CEL to flash. Now there are instances when the misfire is being misdetected at the timing belt pulley by the crank sensor and causing the ECM to set the CEL. This is the condition that I've been mentioning as my suspicion of what is happening in Kinky's car. If his CEL is flashing, it is because the ECM believes there is misfire, either because there really is or because it is falsely detecting it.

-Chip

No sir. Not correct. CEL will throw for anything from a disconnected/bad air intake temperature sensor, disconnected/bad MAP sensor, disconnected/bad oxygen sensor, and many other faults. My car (Jamaican spec Cielo 1.5 GLE) never came with a catalyst, nor does it have a knock sensor. I do have a working CEL though. The CEL will not, however tell you that a SENSOR is at fault. It will tell you if the CIRCUIT related to that sensor is at fault. Could be a bad sensor or a disconnected sensor. Either way it needs attention.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:14 am

www.forenzamotorsports.co wrote:I do not know how much labor was involved Kinky but you could always toss the OEM pulley back on..re-set the computer and do your thing and see what happens. If you take the cost of code readers, $ if you pay to get it read properly (at a dealer) or just your time & concern in this matter it may be worth a try.

I'm sure none of us with 2.0's want it to be the pully because it is a great concept but a few hours time and you may know.

Scott

The CEL hasnt come on since... but i havnt gone over 100mph since the last time it went on either. I dont think its anything important otherwise it wouldnt just go away

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:32 am

OK.... after hours of looking through my manual I've figured out a few things.

Here is the exact info from the manual....

Action Taken When the DTC Sets - Type A
The control module illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) when the diagnostic runs and fails.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets - Type B
The control module illuminates the MIL on the second consecutive ignition cycle that the diagnostic runs and fails.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets - Type B1
The following applies to misfire DTCs:

If the control module detects a low level or an emission level misfire condition during 2 consecutive trips, the control module illuminates the MIL

If the control module detects a high level or catalyst damaging misfire, the control module flashes the MIL at a rate of once per second.

If the control module detects a misfire during 2 non-consecutive trips, the stored conditions are compared with the current conditions. The control module illuminates the MIL when the following conditions occur:
The engine load is within 10 percent of the previous test that failed.
The engine speed is within 375 RPM of the previous test that failed.
The engine coolant temperature is in the same range of the previous test that failed.

The following applies to fuel trim DTCs:
If the control module detects a fuel trim condition during 2 consecutive trips, the control module illuminates the MIL.
If the control module detects a fuel trim condition during 2 non-consecutive trips, the stored conditions are compared with the current conditions. The control module illuminates the MIL when the following conditions occur:
The engine load is within 10 percent of the previous test that failed.
The engine speed is within 375 RPM of the previous test that failed.
The engine coolant temperature is in the same range of the previous test that failed.

Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC - Type A or Type B
The control module turns OFF the MIL after 3 consecutive ignition cycles, when the diagnostic runs and passes.
An active DTC clears when the diagnostic runs and passes.
A history DTC clears after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles, if no failures are reported by this or any other emission related diagnostic.
Use a scan tool in order to clear the MIL and the DTC.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:37 am

So in my case I'm 99% sure the flashing CEL was due to missing automatic transmission sensors giving a "high" signal to the ECU.

I want to get the Forenza ECU flashed with a "manual tranny" program so that I can use the Forenza ECU and keep my Optra one with the Optra Engine (which will be my "winter" engine)

I know it sounds crazy but the Forenza engine will push 300hp with a turbo system and I don't want to have all that power in the winter.

So I'm going to use my stock Optra engine for half the year during the winter and slap in my turbo Forenza motor during the summer.

Shouldn't be too hard to swap it.... with all the wiring allready in place I doubt that it will take more than a couple of hours on a lift.

I want to make an engine stand that will allow me to run my engines during the season they are out of the car..... this way the seals won't dry out.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:42 am

Oh.... incase anyone cares.... if you reset your ECU and you don't do the proper IDLE learn procedure your car will idle funny.

My car has been idling at 3000rpm since I put the Optra ECU back in.

I thought the correct procedure was to turn it on.... let it warm up for 10 minutes and shut the car off.

I was wrong..... here is the idle learn procedure for the Optra/Forenza/Optra5/Reno....

1) Attach Battery cables (which were off for the reset of the ECU)
2) Turn off all accessories
3) Start engine, let it run for 10 seconds
4) Turn off ignition and leave it off for 1 minute
5) Start engine and allow car to warm up so that the coolant temperature exceeds 85 degrees Celcius
6) let the car idle for another 10 minutes
7) Turn on the A/C for 1 minute (if equiped)

Turn off the ignition

Idle learn procedure finished.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:52 am

Erfinder@PrecisionBoost wrote:
I know it sounds crazy but the Forenza engine will push 300hp with a turbo system and I don't want to have all that power in the winter.

So I'm going to use my stock Optra engine for half the year during the winter and slap in my turbo Forenza motor during the summer.

Just make your car all wheel drive.. then the problems solved

...Wouldnt that be cool