Turbo vs. Super

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:42 pm

i know this is a long debated topic... but i have some questions before i throw money out. I'll explain what i'm doing.....
Woohoo, shaun, efrain, erfinder, stefan, lol if you guys can give me some advice lemme know.

If a turbo kit and supercharger kit came out... with the same HP for the same price, which would you buy and why?

right now there is really 2 options (minus "Essential Speeds" turbo Bleh) but RIPP Mods is making the Vortech Supercharger and RoadRaceMotorsports has a turbo charger... dyno'd the RA makes about 140-150 hp. Now, if both kits add 80-100 horsepower, which would be a better buy.

I've long been a fan of turbo's but for stock internals being able to handle about 12 psi (proven) for over 2 years, 5 psi making 100 hp from ripps tuned to make 8 or 10 psi and the RRM turbo making about 80-100 at 8 psi... i'm thinkin the fact i can tune the vortech up 3 psi and have a difference isn't a bad idea.

I know it mostly goes to, Turbo = lag but more top end and Super = constant boost.

But Mitsubishi designed a timing system called Mivec (MIVEC = Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing Electronic Control system)
Which really makes turbo lag, non existant... plus we have a really close ratio gearing.

Now that you have an idea of what i'm working with maybe some idea's or opinions... because i think the intelligence here is much better than 95% of evoM .... not only because most don't know how to change their oil (which i didn't know till after i joined HERE) but also because then the vendors jump in and it gets ugly... so lemme know what you guys think.

here's a picture of the kits (the RIPP MODS is just a mock up for the time being)

MMamdouh · Post by **MMamdouh** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:20 am

i am not a turbo fan either nor an expert on it... the only thing i hate about it is the inherent lag.

from the first pic you posted i see that it is practically a super charger rather than a turbo (the device is driven by a belt rather than exhaust gases) and it is way smaller than a supercharger.

actually i saw some pics for super chargers that are way too big in size and i keept wondering why a device that simple have to be that big??

if that is what you are going to put on your car then go ahead man... it is very neet and their will be no lag whatsoever.

other than that i hate both turbos and super chargers... they are laggy and over sized respectivly.

my 2 cents

MMamdouh

eljunito · Post by **eljunito** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:40 am

Hey Knightwalace:

A co-worker talked to me about the Voltech Supercharger that can be found at EBay in a low price. I was searching for it but didn't found it

The only difference from the 1st pic is that it doesn't have the axle. It only has the supercharger with a pulley on top. If you change the pulley, it can take you to 28 psi.

Where can I see this Voltech? How much is it?

DomWoo · Post by **DomWoo** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:43 am

well this is what i have to say...

i like both setup.. infact it wouldnt matter much to me what one i went with as long as i could reach the same hp

if i was to go for 5-7 psi i would go for a supercharger because there is not the heat that the turbo makes.. no need for expansive intercooler and teh boost is right there rather then having to route pipes all over the hell and there is usually little to no room to put a turbo on a N/A engine, the supercharger spools up with the engine,

the down side is that they can be expansive, uses power to make power unlike a turbo that uses already wasted energy from an engine

there is tons of stuff that one would have to sit down and thing about before choosing and the one person that i know who would be able to answer your question the best is Erfinder

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:09 am

Im pretty sure if you get the right turbo setup you can elimenate lag

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:28 am

YEa i know if you get just the right compressor housing with the right bearings... but you'll still have lag and a power spike...

Ok Lol some clarifications

The top 2 pictures were the "Mock up" SDS Vortech SC
The bottom one was of the RRM turbo

ELjunito, Yes the Vortech charger they had thrown in was just to give them an Idea they will be using it in the way you described... and the fact the battery is missing (where the cone filter) is again a mock up... they will make it so it's pretty much "Bolt on"

And when they get stage II which is still going on stock internals (funny they haven't built the first and already talking about stage II) 9 psi... they use methanol/alcohol injection on the Intercooler to cool things down.

Wouldn't it still be a good idea to even get a Small intercooler? I know i'll be needing an LSD.

Wheres that fooking STi after i get this.

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:29 am

And how should i get Erfinders attention?

And Shaun... how long do you think the turnaround time would be for your friend to powdercoat a few things, i'm going to be going like, metallic blue... kinda like a bluish version of the Gunmetal intake you got me....with the flakes... I want to get my RA's Header, Valve Cover, and a few other pieces.

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:05 am

see this is why i'm stickin' to this forums for intelligent reasoning.

Diamond white:
But the only bad news i have to present is i think i'm going to grab a RIPP Mods Supercharger this summer, with a bunch of RRM goodies.

Viciouz (my inside contact from RRM):
well i've been gone for the past 24 hours... ne wayz... Ripps supercharge i say

too... but go for it... u'll get more power and umph out of our turbocharger than a supercharger, also don't give me that "its more reliable" excuse , truth is it isn't more reliable :lmao: ... its the same its just an urban myth really... a supercharger still requires just as much maitenaince as a turbocharge, and y supercharge a 4 banger thats an import... it makres more sense to do turbo but eh... o well ur car, but i'll bet that a turbo charged RA will hand you your ass any day if you get the supercharger. I'll put 100 bucks on that.

Diamond White:
Yea I dunno i have plenty of research to be doing in the next few months.... but theres a few things leaning me towards that ... and reliability isn't have anything to do..

I dunno I've always been a turbo buff... but if 2 cars Dyno the same exact amount of Hp and tq. How can a Turbo still beat a Supercharger. I mean i understand they get more power in the upper gearings but, the supercharger is more linear power curve... i'm not getting into it lol...

A couple of guys on my daewoo forums are like f'n brilliant so i popped the question... gave them links to both and gave them all the details and what i'm looking for... they'll end up coming up with like 30 scenarios.

Not to say people on here aren't that wise... but i know them from experience and in person and they're just ****in brilliant so i'm not making my choice just yet, but i'm going to be looking into it harcore...

Right now i'm leaning towards the supercharger but like i said plenty of research to do.

But for now i'm pretty much saved up for the kit... so lemme know what it'll look like asap and how much it costs!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks,
DeeJay
__________________
DeeJay Krens

Future Mods:
RRM Rock Personally Designed Body Kit
Blk-Majiks VRS Custom Exhaust

Viciouz Replied:

Superchargers and turbo chargers can dyno the same numbers, but it doesn't mean that they have the same quarter mile times, or same 0-60... the turbocharger reaches it quicker in lower gears and lower rpms... the supercharger gets most of its power in the high end. since its a 4 banger... it has no power down low really, but a turbo charger acommodates for that around 3000 rpm its at full spool, a supercharger will be at full spool at something like 5 to 6000 rpm...

So basically high end a supercharger will kill a turbo charger... but in low end say 0-60 or 1/4 miles times... a turbo charger is most likely to win... also... if you go supercharger... there are no plans for it right now for an upgrade or ne thing better... our turbo is made to be upgraded and other kool stuff... plus you don't get a front mount intercooler... whats with that ... people aren't goign to be liek ? is your car turbo charged or supercharged??? its fun to show off an intercooler .. trust me i know... i get a lot of questions and peopel come up to me and ask me if its real, you wont get that with that methanol injection stuff

-Jay

Btw Erfinder if you do get a chance to respond and need anymore info on the RA engine or what not, just let me know, i'll do my best to let you know.

I know it's a 2.4 liter Mivec engine with 9.5:1 compression and this summer i'll be switching out the stock Rods for Pauter Rods and ARP bolts...

thats the only stock internal i'll be able to change right away as we share the same thing as the 4g63 Engines Rods.

Also i'll be keeping the stock header as it is really the best design for 3500+rpm power.

I'll be getting a Custom exhust.

Downpipe(Test pipe) with this Catback setup:
2.5" or 3" (I don't know which is better, i'm thinking since i may go supercharged i won't have to worry about backpressure as much therefore i can grab the 2.5")
Stainless Steel,
Magnaflow Resonator,
Magnaflow Hi-flow cat,
Megan Racing M-Spec II Carbon Fiber/Titanium Exhaust

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:48 pm

Superchargers require power from the engine to make them run where as a turbo uses spend exhaust gas (basicly free energy )

So at the same boost a turbo will allways make more power.

Superchargers (centrifugal) are pretty decent for making low boost ( 5 to 10 psi ) but they still aren't quite as efficent as todays turbos.

Supercharged engines will have a very nice steady rise in power..... where as turbo engines go from "naturally aspirated" power levels to "holy crap I think I wet my pants" power in a period of a few seconds.

Turbo's do have lag but a correctly sized turbo shouldn't have a problem saying spooled up during shifts.

Sure it doesn't make power down low but that's not necissarilly a bad thing.

When starting from a stop you don't want piles of power right at the start.... otherwise you will just end up spinning your tires.

Once you get up to 3000 RPM in 1st gear the turbo should be making power all the way up to your redline in 5th gear.

Fuel economy with the supercharger (making the same horsepower ) will be significantly worse.

A turbo will only spool up and force air when you jam on the throttle.... so if you take it easy you won't make any boost and you can get some nice "naturally aspirated" fuel economy.

The supercharger forces air in all the time and it also draws power all the time.

You can get a clutch system for a supercharger but they are most likely fairly expensive.

Superchargers don't make huge boost levels from 800RPM.... the boost rises gradually as the engine RPM increases.

So if your turbo and supercharger are rated at the same horsepower, odds are the turbo will make your car faster.

Say the supercharger has to put out 10psi where as the turbo only needs 8hp (due to better efficency)

Now the supercharger is going to put out that 10psi at a particular number of RPM (lets say 5000RPM )

at 5000 RPM it might make 10psi
at 4000 RPM it might make 8psi
at 3000 RPM it might make 6psi
at 2000 RPM it might make 4psi

The turbo is different...

at 5000 RPM it might make 8psi (equivilent to 10psi supercharged)
at 4000 RPM it might make 8psi (equivilent to 10psi supercharged)
at 3500 RPM it might make 6psi (equivilent to 9psi supercharged)
at 3000 RPM it might make 4psi (equivilent to 6psi supercharged)
at 2500 RPM it might make 1psi
at 2000 RPM it makes nothing..... 0psi

So.... the turbo will have a lag.... where it's making next to nothing but then it will spool very quickly and push out as much as the boost controller will allow it to.

The result is that the power band of the turbo engine is fatter... so you will make significantly more power at 3500RPM with the turbo engine. ( my guess is that the turbo engine will have 20% more power at 3500RPM)

I like centrifugal superchargers but the turbo will allways be the best choice for fuel economy and mid to high rpm power.

Having said all that............. a Vortec supercharger is really easy to install.... you can continue to use the factory exhaust manifold or aftermarket header designed for a natrually aspirated vehicle.

With a turbo system you will have a harder time finding space in the engine compartment..... where as the supercharger can be stuffed neatly in the top of the engine.

So it's a toss up....

Turbo... Pros

1) More efficent than supercharger ( so you can make same power with less PSI )
2) Better fuel economy when you don't hammer the accelerator (roughtly the same as the engine would have if it were naturally aspirated )
3) More power in mid to high RPM
4) Uses "free energy" from the exhaust

Turbo... Cons

1) Requries more hardware ( turbo manifold, wastegate )
2) Takes up more room
3) Turbine housing is very hot and needs to be kept away from anything plastic
4) Requires someone with significant experience to design the details of the system ( correct turbo sizing & intercooler design are very important )

*** note I didn't mention turbo lag.... it's non-existant after 3000RPM in 1st gear if the turbo system is designed correctly*****

Supercharger... Pros

1) Super easy to install
2) No hot components to worry about
3) Exhaust can remain stock
4) Very smooth linear gain in boost (and horsepower) from low RPM

Supercharger..... Cons

1) Requires power from the engine to make it run
2) Less efficent than a turbo
3) Doesn't make full boost all the time.... boost is RPM dependant
4) Can't shut it off.... it will allways be shoveling air/fuel into the engine
5) Bad fuel economy ( 1.6L engine will have the economy of a 2.0L engine )

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:31 pm

So after looking at the write ups of both parts you still think it's a much better Idea to grab the RRM Turbo.

I was thinking about it again..

The main thing was ...

Supercharger is making 80-100 hp at 5 psi
Turbosharger is making 80-100 hp at 8 psi.

I know the Supercharger is more linear but i guess for max efficiency and gun i think i may as well just stick with the turbo.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:37 pm

You forgot as a pro the sound of a BOV on a turbocharged vehical

KnightWalace · Post by **KnightWalace** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:21 pm

Both Setups will include a BOV... I CAN't wait to find that Fookin STi ...

AcingTeam · Post by **AcingTeam** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:27 am

KnightWalace wrote:Both Setups will include a BOV... I CAN't wait to find that Fookin STi ...

Really?? I didn't think you could install a bov on the supercharged systems. Is there also pressure build up that can be released?

MMamdouh · Post by **MMamdouh** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:11 am

i am sure their is... both devices compress air and when the throttle is closed that pressure must go somewhere---> BOV.

MMamdouh

Post by **Efratech** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:33 am

Supercharged engines have a more NA engine feeling 'cos when you hit the throttle you can feel the power added. But most of them (when they dont have some sort of intercooler, wich is this usually happens on 90% of the Supercharger kits) dont run that good under hot conditions.

Why? Well compresed air gets hot as we know, usually intake temperatures on supercharge engines are high. But again this can be solved with a intercooler, but the air will travel more to get into the engine, so this will create some lag

But on a Turbo kit there's always a intercooler, wich cools the air before getting into the engine.

Lag will be always present on turbocharged engines, sometimes its minimal, only aftermarket antilag systems can eliminate these, and as Erfinder said a good turbo kit can be develop to get a minimal lag, but again not everything can be perfect.

Mitsu has something called "missfiring system" to eliminate lag on their WRC rally cars, you can always here it working.... is that constant Poping sound on the exhaust (even you can see a backfire sometimes) that you hear when they have slow down a bit for some reason.

I prefer the turbo, you can have many different HP setups by just adjusting the boost.

Also as Erfinder said, by running on Vacumm on a Turbo you can get a very decent fuel economy like a NA engine.

Efrain.