Timing Belt install; cant get cams align

[woohoo2]

First I would like to say I have plenty of experience working on cars with everything except engine & transmission internals and timing belts. The cost for timing belt install has always been worth the insurance for me. So I had my mechanic start to do the job for me but he's completely unreliable and even lies to me to get out of extra work when he doesn't have time. So I'm done with him and frankly I trust my work over any mechanic. I have two Lanos to do and a friends Reno so it is about time I just do it myself. The car is a 1.6l DOHC Lanos from the US and the belt did NOT break. It ran fine before starting the install. I actually got really lucky and accidentally got a glimpse of a tear starting in the gates belt at only 40,000 miles on it. I have the service manual and a crows foot instead of the special tool.

My mechanic removed everything and now I'm trying to install it. My problem is simple; I can't get the timing marks on the cams to align. They will only go into certain positions maybe 4-5 total. If I put them in between any of those positions and let go they will just snap into one of the positions. The right cam will go exactly where it is supposed to but the left is several teeth off. I could probably have someone hold it in position while I put the belt on and hope it stays but I haven't seen anything about having to do something like this. In fact the service manual says to align the cams before putting the belt on. The cams have not been removed and I aligned the timing mark on the crankshaft first. I thought maybe the crankshaft although lined up needed a complete turn or something but I've turned it several complete turns, lined it up, and tried to align the cam gears again with no success.

I feel like I'm missing something simple because I couldn't find any information ANYWHERE about my issue. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I need this car to get to work and school.

[benzino]

that's normal... you just have to hold the cam in position while you put the belt on (this is where the special tool really holds it's value)
if you can grab a second pair of hands to help you, it makes the job a whole lot easier

some have also done it by tying the cams together with small diameter rope but I could never get enough tension to hold the cams in position that way...


also make sure you always turn the crank clockwise

[Daniel]

Left camgear is unstable on this asked position.
You can use the special tool or try to push a piece of soft wood (balsa, poplar,...) between gears to hold their positions.
Remove any trace of wood before starting.

[woohoo2]

Cool thanks guys! Anyone know if there is more than one lanos service manual available in English? The one I have is more vague than any other manual I've owned for my other cars.

I should let you guys know that the 42mm crows foot that has been recommended on this board a few times as a replacement for J-42492 timing belt adjuster tool is not a perfect fit. I think it'll get the job done depending on how much torque you need. My water pumps are 40.3-40.5mm and I measured a Gates pump and whatever brand came out of my car. In case someone pulls this up in a search I want to add that J-42492 is around a $100 shipped online (sometimes $65) and 40 or 42mm crows foot is less than $20 shipped. I didn't see a 41mm crows foot for under $100 shipped but I didn't look all that hard. If I had to do this all over again I would buy a 40mm crows foot and grind it down 0.5mm unless I found a 41mm crows foot for close to the same price as the 40mm one I found.I should let you guys know that the 42mm crows foot that has been recommended on this board a few times as a replacement for J-42492 timing belt adjuster tool is not a perfect fit. I think it'll get the job done depending on how much torque you need. My water pumps are 40.3-40.5mm and I measured a Gates pump and whatever brand came out of my car. In case someone pulls this up in a search I want to add that J-42492 is around a $100 shipped online (good luck finding it locally) and 40 or 42mm crows foot is less than $20 shipped. I didn't see a 41mm crows foot for under $100 shipped but I didn't look all that hard. If I had to do this all over again I would buy a 40mm crows foot and grind it down 0.5mm unless I found a 41mm crows foot for close to the same price as the 40mm one I found. A moderator should add some of this info to the how-to so someone else like me doesn't buy the wrong tool.

[Daniel]

Hi woohoo2,

You can even make your special tool for nuts from scrap metal following the drawing from http://daewootech.efrainarias.com/forum ... 90&start=0
Bend it in Z or U shape depending of your rear Tbelt cover.

[woohoo2]

So I got everything running and the car doesn't seam to be running right. First off I'm as positive as one can be that the timing is correct. I eye balled it, looked every so slightly off. So i tried moving it one tooth each way and it was even further off. I realized the engine was at a slight tilt which made them look slightly off. So I put a level on top of both cams and marked where the bubble was. I then lined the level up perfectly with the timing marks and the bubble was in the same exact spot as it was on top of the cams.

However the car is running slightly rough. It is making a ticking sound almost exactly like it is low on engine oil, but it is not. The sound gets worst and kind of more metallic sounding at higher rpm. I haven't driven it yet just reved to 3k rpms. The engine is also vibrating more than usual and enough to notice it in the cab. In fact the vibrations feel about the same as my other lanos which I filled all the motor and tranny mounts with 91? urethane. Other than the sound the car makes I think it is also louder in general but I'm unsure of that. The car hasn't really been driven for nearly 3 months but started up fine. A crap mechanic started the timing belt job (he only uninstalled it) and I'm thinking he might have disconnected a sensor that he didn't need to so I wouldn't have reconnected it when installing the timing belt. I haven't been able to find anything though.

If the timing was off by one tooth would the car show my symptoms?

The timing belt feels nice and snug but who knows. If it wasn't tight enough would it cause my symptoms?

Any ideas would be very helpful.

[Daniel]

The car hasn't really been driven for nearly 3 months but started up fine.

The sound gets worst and kind of more metallic sounding at higher rpm.

Sticky/empty lifters?

[PrecisionBoost]

First off, before you started any work on the timing belt, did you ensure that the crankshaft was aligned correctly as step #1 ?
Did you at any point have to "force" the cam shaft rotation to get alignment correct ?

If the lifters did not have oil that would make a metalic sound and it would create poor running conditions.
Oil should have filled the lifters within 20-30 seconds of engine start up, If you still have the sound then it is possible you have an oil passage blocked or the oil pump is bad.

Either way the sounds your describing are a bad sign.

[woohoo2]

First off, before you started any work on the timing belt, did you ensure that the crankshaft was aligned correctly as step #1 ?
Did you at any point have to "force" the cam shaft rotation to get alignment correct ?

If the lifters did not have oil that would make a metalic sound and it would create poor running conditions.
Oil should have filled the lifters within 20-30 seconds of engine start up, If you still have the sound then it is possible you have an oil passage blocked or the oil pump is bad.

Either way the sounds your describing are a bad sign.

I followed the service manual instructions perfectly. So yes I aligned the crankshaft first.

I never forced anything. If I felt any resistance at all I stopped immediately and turned back the other way (with the cams). With the crankshaft I only went clockwise except maybe a few mms counterclockwise if I overshot the mark very slightly.

I started the engine and heard the sound. Checked the oil which was fairly low (the car had been sitting 3 months) so I filled it up. Started the car a couple more times letting it run a total of 2 & 5mins. The sound didn't get any better or change after I added oil. Which now that I type that it makes me think it is lack of oil somewhere in the engine otherwise I would think it would have had an additional or louder clicking sound before adding the oil.

I can probably get a video so you guys can hear the sound if that will help?

Is there anyway to check if the oil pump is working properly? I doubt there is a way to check if an oil passage is blocked. Please let me know if there is though.

[PrecisionBoost]

Sounds like you installed timing belt carefully, I have one engine with a bad oil pump and it is quite loud and runs poorly.

If you have a bad oil pump there should be a warning light for oil pressure in your instrument cluster

If you have blockage in the upper head, but you still have oil pressure, there will be no oil pressure light.

You could add 1/2 liter of diesel to the oil, run it for 4-5 minutes and see if it cleans out the oil blockage.

Diesel is nearly identical to your typical "engine flush" , it thins out the oil and dissolves deposits

Just keep in mind you can't drive the car with the diesel in the oil, you have to change the oil and filter after you flush it.

Alternatively just use a good quality engine flush if your concerned about adding a half liter of diesel.

[woohoo2]

Sounds like you installed timing belt carefully, I have one engine with a bad oil pump and it is quite loud and runs poorly.

If you have a bad oil pump there should be a warning light for oil pressure in your instrument cluster

If you have blockage in the upper head, but you still have oil pressure, there will be no oil pressure light.

You could add 1/2 liter of diesel to the oil, run it for 4-5 minutes and see if it cleans out the oil blockage.

Diesel is nearly identical to your typical "engine flush" , it thins out the oil and dissolves deposits

Just keep in mind you can't drive the car with the diesel in the oil, you have to change the oil and filter after you flush it.

Alternatively just use a good quality engine flush if your concerned about adding a half liter of diesel.

I wasn't aware the lanos had an oil pressure light. I didn't notice another dash light on but didn't really look either so I'll check that. I do have a CEL that I haven't been able to get rid of since I got the car. The previous owner seamed to really know cars, especially daewoos and he couldn't figure it out either. It probably wouldn't hurt to scan the CEL just in case there is another code.

I have read these forums long enough to trust your advice so diesel it is! I'll give it a try tomorrow sometime.

On a side note I didn't tighten the crankshaft pulley bolt the way the manual asks using an angular torque gauge. Is it worth renting the tool and doing it properly or can I just torque it to xx ft.lbs and be safe? I torqued it to about 80ft.lbs, the manual says to do 70ft.lbs then 30 degrees + 15 degrees.

[Daniel]

>
>
On a side note I didn't tighten the crankshaft pulley bolt the way the manual asks using an angular torque gauge. Is it worth renting the tool and doing it properly or can I just torque it to xx ft.lbs and be safe? I torqued it to about 80ft.lbs, the manual says to do 70ft.lbs then 30 degrees + 15 degrees.

I have torqued my crankshaft bolt on my 1.6DOHC as per the manual and thereafter checked the final torque for my information. My torque wrench still clicked at 115 ft.lbs.

[woohoo2]

Spent the day with my niece and nephew so I will try the diesel fuel tomorrow.

I have torqued my crankshaft bolt on my 1.6DOHC as per the manual and thereafter checked the final torque for my information. My torque wrench still clicked at 115 ft.lbs.

Wow that's a lot. How did you hold it in place to get the torque needed? I have air tools but they are packed away right now. With my friends lanos I used vice grips but they took a small chunk out of the pulley so I don't want to try that again. lol

[Daniel]

>
My torque wrench still clicked at 115 ft.lbs.
Wow that's a lot. How did you hold it in place to get the torque needed?

Several ways to do this.

-I put in fifth and push on brakes pedal.

or
-Remove starter (difficult) and block flywheel there.

or
-remove a cover plate that some engine (auto trans?) may have to discover flywheel

Cover plate.JPG

or
-block flywheel by two allen keys found here http://www.daewootech.com/forum/viewtop ... y+flywheel

Blocage volant moteur.jpg

[woohoo2]

Tried half liter of diesel fuel for 5 1/2 mins and it didn't seam to help at all. The temp gauge had just barley started moving but hadn't even made it past the first bar, the large one that the needle starts at or a tad under. Are we still thinking an oil passage blocked or is there anything else I can try? What about topping off the engine (to the oil cap) with oil & diesel fuel and letting it sit over night? Obviously NOT starting it. If an oil passage is blocked I feel like running the car wouldn't do anything more than splash the blockage especially if it is near the top of the engine because the oil is going to take the path of least resistance. Then again it is under pressure and it may eat away at certain parts of the engine. hmm

Also no dash lights. I did notice my voltage slowly dropping though. ~30 seconds after starting the car the voltage settled around 14.1v and over the 5mins it slowly dropped to around 13v. I really feel the alternator belt is at the tension it should be. I didn't turn on or change any of the electronics. Before I did the timing belt install the electrical system was strong never dropping below 14.5v at idle with no electronics on. The optimal battery has been totally dead the past month and I charged it a couple days ago with a 2amp charger until it was at 10v then again the next day to 13.5v. Is this normal from starting the car?