SAFC, need help deciding which is the best to tune my turbo

[mohmedhat]

Please help me deciding which of the following Apexi AFC model is the best for me to use in my lanos DOHC 1.6 turbo project, I used 2bar map sensor (I made up a circuit to let the ECU use the original 1bar map as a pyrometer before engine start and use the 2bar map to correct a/f ratio while engine running) and doubled my injectors.

Model 1


Model 2


Model 3


Model 4


Model 5

[benzino]

i don't think a AFC is suitable for the application. see: http://www.alamomotorsports.com/apexi/safc.html

i would think you would need a ignition and fuel computer or interceptor computer

i think that using an AFC would greatly reduce your tuning ability and therefore end result
if you are definitely going for an AFC, the NEO is the newest model (pic 4)

[mohmedhat]

Why should I need ignition stand alone control, I think upto 1bar boost I can use the octane jumber to retart it, as I cared to pick up exactly doubled sized injectors I think I just need a slight a/f fine tune at idle and full throttle.

[mohmedhat]

Please take a look at this link it not a new setup it's a widely used but I think new here
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?s=0 ... 9852&st=40

[benzino]

have you got a new FPR as well?

also, do you think the octane jumper will retard the timing enough? i really think you would be better off with a interceptor rather than one of these "tricks"
if you get something like a greddy emanage, you'll be able to properly map out the fuel and retard the ignition.

will you be street tuning or dyno tuning?

[mohmedhat]

I don't like blind the ecu and let a stIand alone after market one to control the fuel and ignition. The octane jumber can retarf it about 6 degrees degree, in the selica forum a guy run this setup upto 20ps perfectly, I will do it dyno just monitor everything and and be sure everything is ok

[benzino]

good luck with that... i think it's not the wisest move though

a SAFC is blinding the ecu just as much as the standalone...
imagine this:

the ecu is a man, the sensors his eyes, ears, nose etc.
the SAFC makes his eyes blind and he just has his other sensors/senses to help him get around... not very effective, right?
the standalone makes nothing of the man work like original but instead there's someone pushing him along in a wheelchair

i know what i'd rather...

but to answer your original question

from best to worst:
4
5
3
1
2

if you go for an AFC, go for the neo
good luck and i hope it ends up working well

[gse_turbo]

i think you're lost on the whole stand alone computer. it you want to compare an ECU to a man, then a stand alone is like taking a child with a solar powered calculator (the stock ecu), getting rid of him completely and replacing him with Einstein using the most advanced computers available. seriously. a standalone ECU completely eliminates the stock ecu, there's nothing left of it. it's completely replaced with a different, better, more advanced 100% tunable, controllable ECU.

there are a lot of great standalone ECU's out there but I like AEM the best. it's affordable, easy to use, most professional tuning shops know it well.

on the more affordable side, I suggest AEM's FIC (Fuel and Ignition Control). it's what I have and it's great for most average turbo builds.

cheers

[gse_turbo]

on another note, the stock ecu is programmed to walk, a turbo motor is built to run. ANY type of ECU mod (piggyback or standalone) is like steroids for a lamed person that can only walk (or stumble in our ECU's case) for the time being but should be able to sprint.

the wheelchair illustration is backwards.

[gse_turbo]

one last thing. I'll sell you the emanage blue out of a turboed car I bought. complete system 100.

[benzino]

thanks for clarifying my point Garrett, I'm not that good with the metaphors... hahahah

[gse_turbo]

[PrecisionBoost]

There are tons of people who use simple mechanical tuning ( change pressure sensor, change fuel pressure, change injector size, bleed screws inline with MAP sensor, check valves ) and then use something simple like the SAFC2 to clean up any imperfections.

By modifying the intake air temp sensor data and map sensor data via SAFC2 you do change timing and you are limited to a 50% change at any given point.

If your adding fuel via the SAFC2 then typically the ignition is being advanced, if your decreasing fuel via the SAFC2 then the ignition is being retarded.

So if you do want to use the SAFC you need to ensure that your injectors are sized such that you are always on the rich side of 11:1 and then use the SAFC2 to lean out to something closer to 12.2:1

Realistically if you can get a mechanical tune that is within 10% of what you want, then a SAFC2 would work just fine to clean up the bumps in the A/F curve.

There are many guys who simply spend a few hours with different sized injectors and a variable rising rate fuel pressure regulator who manage to get nearly perfect tuning without the use of an additional electronics.

In the old days, it was a simple matter of adjusting the carburetor ( example increasing or decreasing jet size ), they didn't use computers and they did just fine.

Injectors are not much different than jets, play with the size and pressure and you can do just about as well as a carburetor.

Additionally you have the option of installing an extra injector ( or two ), this is one of the simplest routes as you can keep the stock system and simply install a check valve so that the MAP sensor does not see boost.

The injector drivers are probably similar to price to that of the SAFC2, but you can simply add fuel as opposed to using electronics to modify sensor signals to trick the ECU into injecting more or less fuel.


With respect to timing, you need to simply retard the timing and the easiest way to do that is to use something like the MSD DIS2 system.

Given you are looking to retard as opposed to advance the ignition, there are even a few simple circuits out there to add delay in factory timing.


On the flip side, if your going to buy a SAFC2 then you might as well look at other alternatives such as the Greddy Emanage Blue that Garrett mentioned (great price by the way).

The EManage system is a little harder to install, but not significantly and you can even use it for the sole purpose of running secondary injectors installed just behind the throttle body.


In the end, there are lots of options, lots of ways to get a car tuned, but some installations or tuning methods require more patients than others.

[mohmedhat]

i'm a little bit confused what is the best option for me from the below 3:

using one of Apexi SAFC mentioned in this post?

using below Split Second with it's a/f monitor from ebay?

or using an old emanage offered here?

what i have now for my turbo setup:
1- TD04L turbo
2- 2 bar map sensor
3- Fuel pressure regulator
4- 310cc bosch injectors
5- mercedes compresor intercooler

thanks for your help in advance...

[mohmedhat]

i'm a little bit confused what is the best option for me from the below 3:

using one of Apexi SAFC mentioned in this post?

using below Split Second with it's a/f monitor from ebay?


or using an old emanage offered here?

what i have now for my turbo setup:
1- TD04L turbo
2- 2 bar map sensor
3- Fuel pressure regulator
4- 310cc bosch injectors
5- mercedes compresor intercooler

thanks for your help in advance...