Advantages of remote reservoirs for coil-overs

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:35 pm

What are the advantages of having remote reservoirs? What do they do exactly?

Danny

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:41 am

Remote reservoirs give you better cooling during racing.

This is achieved by having more oil and the fact that you can mount the reservoirs in a moving air stream to help cool the oil.

If you find that the coilovers are too hot to touch after a hard run then they are getting too hot.

Heat will cause a "fade" similar to that of brake systems...... the damning force gets messed up as the viscosity of the oil changes dramaticly.

Get really hot and the oil will start breaking down and eventually you will blow the seals.

It's like anything else in racing..... the better you can control the heat levels the more reliable and predictable the parts will be.

I think the remote reservoirs are mainly needed in Rally racing where the coilovers are moving up and down thousands of times a minute.

With smooth track racing...... your probably not working them really hard... so you might not need them.[/url]

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:48 pm

chris@PrecisionBoost wrote:Remote reservoirs give you better cooling during racing.

This is achieved by having more oil and the fact that you can mount the reservoirs in a moving air stream to help cool the oil.

If you find that the coilovers are too hot to touch after a hard run then they are getting too hot.

Heat will cause a "fade" similar to that of brake systems...... the damning force gets messed up as the viscosity of the oil changes dramaticly.

Get really hot and the oil will start breaking down and eventually you will blow the seals.

It's like anything else in racing..... the better you can control the heat levels the more reliable and predictable the parts will be.

I think the remote reservoirs are mainly needed in Rally racing where the coilovers are moving up and down thousands of times a minute.

With smooth track racing...... your probably not working them really hard... so you might not need them.[/url]

Ahh, Didn't even think about that. I have no idea if mine are getting to hot as I can't reach them at all with the car so low, even with the car jacked I'm not sure if I can get my hand up in there anymore.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:37 pm

You could allways jack up the car and remove the wheel if you wanted to check.

Like I said..... for the type of racing you do.... it probably won't heat up enough to make a difference.

I'd bet that Chip had to replace factory struts on a regular basis before they got their KW setup put together.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:45 pm

chris@PrecisionBoost wrote:You could allways jack up the car and remove the wheel if you wanted to check.

Like I said..... for the type of racing you do.... it probably won't heat up enough to make a difference.

I'd bet that Chip had to replace factory struts on a regular basis before they got their KW setup put together.

How hot (to the touch) would it have to be for me to start thinking about remote res?

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:06 am

Probably if you could hold onto it without going "ahhhh... I burned myself"...... I really don't know the exact temperature that the oil breaks down..... probably well above 200 deg F.... perhaps higher.... not sure exactly.... but I'd imagine that the seals would be the first to go (start leaking)

All I know is that you should be able to hold onto the coilover assembly comforably.... without burning yourself

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:35 am

Another reason to include remote resevoir shocks is the valving. With a mono-tube shock you are bound by the piston valves which on MOST shocks are totally not servicable and at best only get softer or firmer.

With remotes, you can adjust the 4 areas of shock movement...

Speed of motion in compression
Hardness of compression
Speed of release (dependant on spring rate as well)
Hardness of release
*release being "rebound"

There are plenty of shock manufacturers who custom make shocks for applications all over the place. Ohlins will make anything you order and dyno it to give you the exact rates you're after. You may find that performance shocks (i.e. Koni's) are a better option for the GMDAT's because you can't really control suspension geometry without some seriously funky fabrication.

I don't know that you'd ever find a need for them Kinky

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:50 pm

Audacityracing wrote:Another reason to include remote resevoir shocks is the valving. With a mono-tube shock you are bound by the piston valves which on MOST shocks are totally not servicable and at best only get softer or firmer.

With remotes, you can adjust the 4 areas of shock movement...

Speed of motion in compression
Hardness of compression
Speed of release (dependant on spring rate as well)
Hardness of release
*release being "rebound"

There are plenty of shock manufacturers who custom make shocks for applications all over the place. Ohlins will make anything you order and dyno it to give you the exact rates you're after. You may find that performance shocks (i.e. Koni's) are a better option for the GMDAT's because you can't really control suspension geometry without some seriously funky fabrication.

I don't know that you'd ever find a need for them Kinky

Now how do you adjust those w/ remotes? Technically speaking?

I already have KW variant 3s so I won't even think about changing my suspension for along long time. Only problem I have with them is I maxed out at only -.3 camber in the front. Ideally I want -2.5 while my car is still my daily driver and possibly as much as -3.5 in the distant future. Boshart motorsports is looking into trying to get more camber out of the front but they have been for months. Do you have any ideas?

Also how would you adjust the rebound for the track? and the shocks stiffness? When I had the rebound halfway I stiffened up the shocks completly and it about a 1/4 softer (from max harness) and it was good but I never got into tunning rebound. The way the rebound was if the shocks were at full stiffness then the car bounced too much in one corner and I lost allot of speed.

oh and, ITS AWESOME TO HAVE YOU BACK! Hopfully you stick around the forums for awhile and thanks for all the technical help you've given to me and others in the past...I've learned allot.

Danny

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:47 pm

It depends on the brand as to the specifics of changing out the valves and piston flow-ways. Some brands are as easy as screwing in a new valve on the barrel, others are as complicated as taking the entire thing apart and putting the valves on the piston itself.

A lot of high-end remotes have valves on the shock body and on the reservior. You can buy 3 way, 4 way, and up to 8 way adjustable shocks depending on what your really after (and in professional motorsports I've seen up to a 12-way adjustable shock/spring assembly for formula style cars that need progressive shock curves).

Perhaps you should look at SusProg3D to get an idea for tuning. There is a free version of the software available if you look around the internet for it. With a tape measure, a level, and a knowing your corner weights you can accurately model your suspension and generate the numbers so you can see what needs a specific amount of tuning. You'll also be happy to see your roll center locations, wheel rates, inclination angle, etc etc etc.

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:04 pm

Audacityracing wrote:It depends on the brand as to the specifics of changing out the valves and piston flow-ways. Some brands are as easy as screwing in a new valve on the barrel, others are as complicated as taking the entire thing apart and putting the valves on the piston itself.

A lot of high-end remotes have valves on the shock body and on the reservior. You can buy 3 way, 4 way, and up to 8 way adjustable shocks depending on what your really after (and in professional motorsports I've seen up to a 12-way adjustable shock/spring assembly for formula style cars that need progressive shock curves).

Perhaps you should look at SusProg3D to get an idea for tuning. There is a free version of the software available if you look around the internet for it. With a tape measure, a level, and a knowing your corner weights you can accurately model your suspension and generate the numbers so you can see what needs a specific amount of tuning. You'll also be happy to see your roll center locations, wheel rates, inclination angle, etc etc etc.

Changing out the valves and pistons to add remotes or what do you mean? Boshart has remotes on there coil-overs and I beleive there running the variant 3 like me.

Is there really much of a need for that many adjustments? I mean, I'm sure they help but I have a hell of allot more work to do before I start trying to get 100s of a second from suspension tuning. I still have several seconds to gain just by learning.

Awesome, I still need to get corner weights with all my new mods but I'll be sure to get ahold of the software.

Thanks again

Audacity Racing · Post by **Audacity Racing** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:23 pm

Don't discount suspension tuning as mere 1/100th's of a second. Think of it like this...

What is the most important performance part on your car? - Tires
What connects the tires to the car? The suspension

Providing the proper amount of mechanical grip (what shock tuning provides) is the basis for apex and end-of-turn gains. The weight transfer going into a corner is dictated by the springs and the sway bars. Coming out of the corners it's all about the rebound of the shocks (provided the springs have the oomph to lift the car... and odds are they do). This is where the weight transfer off your wheels side to side becomes weight transfer front to back. If the car continues to lean, you aren't getting the most out of your torque to pull you out, especially in a FWD car.

That's broken down pretty severely, but the point is if the vehicle has to lean to keep tire contact as you exit a corner then you aren't maximizing grip... and your if your tires aren't being maxed out... your car isn't. If the tires aren't working right, then you have entire seconds worth of speed left to develop through mechanical tuning alone, not to mention your driving abilities.

I'm not familiar with your particular shocks enough to provide specific tuning info, but if I dig around I'm sure I'll come up with some. You might need to make a little fulcrum and buy a bathroom scale to get your cornerweights down perfect too

kinkyllama · Post by **kinkyllama** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:36 am

Audacityracing wrote:Don't discount suspension tuning as mere 1/100th's of a second. Think of it like this...

What is the most important performance part on your car? - Tires
What connects the tires to the car? The suspension

Providing the proper amount of mechanical grip (what shock tuning provides) is the basis for apex and end-of-turn gains. The weight transfer going into a corner is dictated by the springs and the sway bars. Coming out of the corners it's all about the rebound of the shocks (provided the springs have the oomph to lift the car... and odds are they do). This is where the weight transfer off your wheels side to side becomes weight transfer front to back. If the car continues to lean, you aren't getting the most out of your torque to pull you out, especially in a FWD car.

That's broken down pretty severely, but the point is if the vehicle has to lean to keep tire contact as you exit a corner then you aren't maximizing grip... and your if your tires aren't being maxed out... your car isn't. If the tires aren't working right, then you have entire seconds worth of speed left to develop through mechanical tuning alone, not to mention your driving abilities.

I'm not familiar with your particular shocks enough to provide specific tuning info, but if I dig around I'm sure I'll come up with some. You might need to make a little fulcrum and buy a bathroom scale to get your cornerweights down perfect too

Sorry, I shoulda been more clear. I ment the extra tunning options. Suspension along with at least decent brakes are the biggest factors for laps times other than the driver. It's just if I can adjust the stiffness, rebound, camber, and once my car isnt street driven much the toe...then any other adjustments (as far as I've learned anyways) arn't nearly as important.

There are corner weight days where you can use scales for like $20 which is usualyl a donation to a chairty as well. I just need to become buddys with someone that can help me locally otherwise I won't have enough time to corner balance my car with the time given, esp since I havn't done it ever.

I also need to get a video of my car from outside the car. The car feels like its leaning a crap load on the nascar turn at a local track. It feels like its leaning almsot as much as before my sway bars and coilovers (when I had jsut lowering springs) so maybe it just feels like it's leaning when its not. Besides that every other corner if feels damn solid just need to get it tunned better.