Sunbird hybrid

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:45 am

Hi,

I would like to swap a T20SED into a sunbird with a C20NE. I might just swap the head. Does anyone know anything about this swap? I already know a few things.. Like I might have to use the sunbird A/C bracket if I swap the entire motor (blocks are basically same) and the power steering pump will not work from the sunbird most likely.. So I have to either use an electric one or a manual steering rack... Might go for the manual.. But other than that is there anything else I need to know?

Thank you!

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:13 am

There are a few guys that have done this.... I own an 87 Sunbird GT turbo.... and a Pontiac Lemans with the Sunbird 2.0L 8V turbo (C20GET)

Upgrading to the 16V may be a headache.... it uses a DIS ignition system (no distributor) so the compatibility with the Sunbird ECU will depend on what year of Sunbird you had (since the newer ones also used a Distributorless ignition system)

PontiacJeff is the man you want to talk to about this..... he's using a C20GET bottom end with a Daewoo 16V head.

I think he simply made a bracket to relocate his distributor to run off the front belt system.

GsiTurbo and I were looking at the T20SED and C20GET a few days ago discussing the plan for the power steering and it sounds like he's going manual because it might be a real pain to relocate the power steering to the back side (currently the power steering uses the bolts where the front engine mount hooks up to )

I bought a Lanos which also has the same front mount and I want to drop a U20SED into it.... so I will also be dealing with the same problem.

My thought is to design a plate to allow relocation of the power steering ..... oh and the belt tensioner as well.... since it's on the same bracket.

We figure that the sunbird power steering pump can be used as long as you use a sunbird belt.... the stock T20SED belt is wider and has 5 grooves while the sunbird only has 4 grooves.... but they are spaced the same... so you should be able to use the sunbird 4 groove belt on the T20SED pullies without any side effects.

Post by **Efratech** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:06 pm

Chris,

why doesnt tom just use an electric power steering pump?

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:16 pm

chris@PrecisionBoost wrote:There are a few guys that have done this.... I own an 87 Sunbird GT turbo.... and a Pontiac Lemans with the Sunbird 2.0L 8V turbo (C20GET)

Upgrading to the 16V may be a headache.... it uses a DIS ignition system (no distributor) so the compatibility with the Sunbird ECU will depend on what year of Sunbird you had (since the newer ones also used a Distributorless ignition system)

PontiacJeff is the man you want to talk to about this..... he's using a C20GET bottom end with a Daewoo 16V head.

I think he simply made a bracket to relocate his distributor to run off the front belt system.

GsiTurbo and I were looking at the T20SED and C20GET a few days ago discussing the plan for the power steering and it sounds like he's going manual because it might be a real pain to relocate the power steering to the back side (currently the power steering uses the bolts where the front engine mount hooks up to )

I bought a Lanos which also has the same front mount and I want to drop a U20SED into it.... so I will also be dealing with the same problem.

My thought is to design a plate to allow relocation of the power steering ..... oh and the belt tensioner as well.... since it's on the same bracket.

We figure that the sunbird power steering pump can be used as long as you use a sunbird belt.... the stock T20SED belt is wider and has 5 grooves while the sunbird only has 4 grooves.... but they are spaced the same... so you should be able to use the sunbird 4 groove belt on the T20SED pullies without any side effects.

My Sunbird is a 92' so I can use the same injectors and ignition (im happy about that part!)

Is a manual steering rack a lot harder to steer with? I might run an electric one, or are there problems with this?

What do I have to do about the tensioner pulley? And where does the alternator go? I was talking to pontiacJeff and he said something about making a custom bracket for that too? Do I just use the Daewoo alternator and use the same brackets or what?

Do all of the plugs fit the sunbird harness with the exception of the EGR? Or am I going to have problems there too?

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:16 am

Lots of good questions.... and I don't have answers to all of them..... Unfortunatly my T22SED is stripped so I don't have the wiring harness to look at (it's in a box all twisted up )

I'm not sure how many of the sensors and plugs are different.... I'm not even sure how the old 8V DIS got it's tach signal.... I'm assuming it was off the crank sensor.

If that is the case..... it should make it easier.

I'm not sure how well the electric power steering works.... I've never tried it or known anybody with one.... I'd have to imagine they are expensive.

The Tensioner is the big issue..... were working on it.... like Pontiac Jeff said.... most likely need a custom bracket.

I'd use the factory Daewoo alternator..... make a custom bracket to fit the Pontiac Lemans power steering pump (much smaller) and belt tensioner.

The problem is I don't know how much room you will have..... is your sunbird an Automatic or manual..... I remember my TH125 had a leg right behind the motor... which could cause interference problems.

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:25 am

It's an automatic. I am using a manual steering rack, so I already have that one solved.

The tensioner is the major issue..

Im using a Daewoo alternator and I guess some sort of bracket needs to be made but pontiacJeff said it was a common bracket?

It's an automatic, is the TH125 auto or manual? It's the 3 speed crappy auto...

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:58 pm

ok, found out from pontiacJeff and also thought more about the alternator issue. I am going to try to fabricate a bracket for the alternator that has long slotted holes in it so it will be able to be pulled back, therefore putting tension on the belt, and then tightened. This is the way pontiacJeff has his setup. Already acquired a woo alternator and a manual steering rack. Things are starting to look a little more positive. Also, he seemed to indicate that the wiring harness for my car will fit everything on the woo engine. The C20NE/C20GET actually use the same crank sensor as the T20SED so I'm also fine there. Will not be needing the cam sensor on the T20 so I can delete that..

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:52 pm

Does anyone know how much the head on the T20SED can be milled for increased compression?

Does anyone know where to find the C20XE pistons?

Are the internals such as pistons, crank, rings, etc... on the T20SED the same size as the C20NE?

What's a good headgasket for increased compression (non turbo)

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:44 am

I think I know someone with a set of C20XE pistons for sale.... I will have to check into it.

Everything is pretty much the same..... the C20XE uses a floating piston where as the C20NE is a press fit..... but this isn't too hard to overcome.

I'd go with a Cometic MLS gasket just because it's the strongest gasket you can get.

As for shaving the head..... I'm not sure.... the C20XE pistons may have slightly different valve cutouts than the T20SED (which is based on the X20XEV) so you might want to be carefull about valve clearance.

You should go here..... http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

Click on Opel and then Wiseco pistons..... they have as high as 11:1 pistons for the C20XE.... decent price for forged pistons.

As well you might want to consider their Toga rods..... then you can run higher RPM..... I know someone with a set (GsiTurbo) and they seem to be decent quality.

Chris

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:57 am

chris@PrecisionBoost wrote:I think I know someone with a set of C20XE pistons for sale.... I will have to check into it.

Everything is pretty much the same..... the C20XE uses a floating piston where as the C20NE is a press fit..... but this isn't too hard to overcome.

I'd go with a Cometic MLS gasket just because it's the strongest gasket you can get.

As for shaving the head..... I'm not sure.... the C20XE pistons may have slightly different valve cutouts than the T20SED (which is based on the X20XEV) so you might want to be carefull about valve clearance.

You should go here..... http://www.importperformanceparts.net/

Click on Opel and then Wiseco pistons..... they have as high as 11:1 pistons for the C20XE.... decent price for forged pistons.

As well you might want to consider their Toga rods..... then you can run higher RPM..... I know someone with a set (GsiTurbo) and they seem to be decent quality.

Chris

Yeah, if you could look into that for me that would be great and also what condition they're in.

The C20XE pistons are the same size (bore) as the T20SED?

Thank you for the info, you are a really big help along with pontiacJeff! Some forums I go to will not answer anything because I guess the fact that I am new to the forums..?

I was looking and.. Do I have to get cometic to custom make me a headgasket? I didn't see anything for my car..

[update]

Is the cometic MLS gasket under Vauxhall/Opel and then "TC 2.0L 16V 4 Cylinder" the one that I need?

GsiTurbo · Post by **GsiTurbo** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:47 am

I've got some good used 10.5:1 forged pistons from C20XE, they are for 1st oversize of 86.5mm.
http://www.daewootech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7225

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:57 am

GsiTurbo wrote:I've got some good used 10.5:1 forged pistons from C20XE, they are for 1st oversize of 86.5mm.
http://www.daewootech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7225

ahh.. I wish I had the funds.. I mean.. I have them for the 175 for the pistons, but I would need new rods because the T20SED stock rods wouldn't work, right? Rods are over my budget.. (even the 500 for everything)

I think I might see what my dad's machinist can do about milling(shaving) the head and looking at the eyebrows in the pistons to see if they need to be increased after that. I dont know.. This is the part that stinks about this.. Money..

GsiTurbo · Post by **GsiTurbo** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:15 am

You can get used set of rods from Europe for about US $200 after shipping.

C20GET · Post by **C20GET** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:46 pm

If you already use NA PFI then I'd recommend using a stock configuration 16V engine and powertrain controller. There's no tuning software for the 92-94 'Bird NA ecm and the airflow will be fairly different between the two. 'Woos use a GM control module and wiring harness and it's decent quality stuff.

C20GET dows not use the same crank sensor as the C20NE engine. The C20GET does not have a crank sensor, nor does it have the toothed wheel on the crank or the hole in the block which the sensor fits in. The C20GET engine uses a distributor. Trust me on this.

If you decide to make changes to the engine in terms of cam, compression, &etc, you will likely want to find ways to adjust fuel and spark delivery. Finding a combination of pcm which has tuning software available and easy to install ignition system might not prove easy. That's why Jeff used the distributor.

hth

decyphex · Post by **decyphex** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:28 pm

C20GET wrote:If you already use NA PFI then I'd recommend using a stock configuration 16V engine and powertrain controller. There's no tuning software for the 92-94 'Bird NA ecm and the airflow will be fairly different between the two. 'Woos use a GM control module and wiring harness and it's decent quality stuff.

C20GET dows not use the same crank sensor as the C20NE engine. The C20GET does not have a crank sensor, nor does it have the toothed wheel on the crank or the hole in the block which the sensor fits in. The C20GET engine uses a distributor. Trust me on this.

If you decide to make changes to the engine in terms of cam, compression, &etc, you will likely want to find ways to adjust fuel and spark delivery. Finding a combination of pcm which has tuning software available and easy to install ignition system might not prove easy. That's why Jeff used the distributor.

hth

So it's best to just go stock and not change anything about the compression or anything..? And yes, I knew that the two blocks C20GET and C20NE were the same in that aspect, but other than that they are much alike.