Well, the 2.0L OHC motor in my sunbird is on it's last leg(the main bearings are almost wasted, sound like marbles rolling around in my oil pan). I'm not sure how long the motor will last for before it kicks the bucket. Anyway, I did some thinking, and figured that this will give me the oppurtunity to replace my old motor with the 2.2L that came in the Leganza. I just need to find a running engine first! My concern is with the ECM/wiring harness. The sunbird is OBD whereas the 2.2L is OBDII. Should I just use the ECM/wiring harness from the leganza donor? I'm asking because I know that the engine block will bolt up to my transmission without a problem, but the tranny doesn't have the sensor needed to run OBDII. It only has a connector for the TCC(torque converter clutch). OR, I can just use the sensors that came with the 2.2L, and splice them into the existing 2.0L wiring harness. I'm not sure what I should do. Any help/info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Paul Moore
Putting a T22SED into my Sunbird, but need some help/info...
Moderators: daewoomofo, Moderators Group
Well, it is VERY hard to find a good used turbo sunbird anywhere that hasn't been beat to $h!t. I go to about 7 different junkyards, and I have only seen 1 turbo sunbird in the past 3 years, and it had a hole in the block. The turbo sunbird made 160HP and 170TQ on 7-8 psi of boost whereas the T22SED makes 155HP stock N/A I believe. I do plan on using the T22SED as a turbo motor, but I need something reliable to put in the bird until I can get the money to put it all together, hence the reason why I still want the woo engine.
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PrecisionBoost
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I don't see any reason why you could't use the Sunbird sensors on the T22SED and run it under the old OBD setup.
Your only issue would be with triggering the ignition and injection..... so you need to figure something out so that you can attach the Sunbird distributor to the T22SED.
I have seen a couple of cars running an external distributor attached via the timing belt.... this would certainly fix all your problems.
The option is to get a 16V head that comes with a distributor (such as a C20XE.... or atleast I think it came with a distributor.)
I have a C20GET ( 2.0L 8V turbo ) and a T22SED right now and there really is very little difference between the two.
The T22SED has a deck height that is 1cm taller and the oil dipstick is on the left side of the block instead of the right (or was it right instead of left
)
The T22SED will have some nice enhancements such as a cast iron girdle and big aluminum oil pan.
The T22SED should make decent power right off the start and the usual lines for the oil feed to the turbo can be found in the same place as the C20GET.
I'm sure Tom at 360Dynamics can get you some reasonably priced forged low compression pistons for when you want to turbo the T22SED.
Tom should have a nice cast iron turbo manifold for my T20SED within the next month or so and the T22SED has the same head as the T20SED so you can use it for your turbo project.
The manifold has a T3 flange on it..... so the T25 from the stock Sunbird GT Turbo won't match up..... but there are plenty T3/T4 hybrids out there to choose from.
Your only issue would be with triggering the ignition and injection..... so you need to figure something out so that you can attach the Sunbird distributor to the T22SED.
I have seen a couple of cars running an external distributor attached via the timing belt.... this would certainly fix all your problems.
The option is to get a 16V head that comes with a distributor (such as a C20XE.... or atleast I think it came with a distributor.)
I have a C20GET ( 2.0L 8V turbo ) and a T22SED right now and there really is very little difference between the two.
The T22SED has a deck height that is 1cm taller and the oil dipstick is on the left side of the block instead of the right (or was it right instead of left
)The T22SED will have some nice enhancements such as a cast iron girdle and big aluminum oil pan.
The T22SED should make decent power right off the start and the usual lines for the oil feed to the turbo can be found in the same place as the C20GET.
I'm sure Tom at 360Dynamics can get you some reasonably priced forged low compression pistons for when you want to turbo the T22SED.
Tom should have a nice cast iron turbo manifold for my T20SED within the next month or so and the T22SED has the same head as the T20SED so you can use it for your turbo project.
The manifold has a T3 flange on it..... so the T25 from the stock Sunbird GT Turbo won't match up..... but there are plenty T3/T4 hybrids out there to choose from.
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PrecisionBoost
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One other option is to use an aftermarket fuel management system and use the supplied crank trigger.
You could keep the stock sunbird ecu to make the tranny happy ( since it sounds like you have an automatic ) and let the aftermarket fuel management system take care of the engine.
This will help you tune for the maximum power via a laptop and you won't have to worry about the wiring.
Leaving the factory ECU in there with the OBD will probably help you when it comes to any state inspections or testing..... since the ECU will have all the signal data from the sunbird sensors and think that it's controlling the injectors.
I guess it all depends upon your budget.
You could keep the stock sunbird ecu to make the tranny happy ( since it sounds like you have an automatic ) and let the aftermarket fuel management system take care of the engine.
This will help you tune for the maximum power via a laptop and you won't have to worry about the wiring.
Leaving the factory ECU in there with the OBD will probably help you when it comes to any state inspections or testing..... since the ECU will have all the signal data from the sunbird sensors and think that it's controlling the injectors.
I guess it all depends upon your budget.
Erfinder, thanks for posting! Yes, you are correct about the fact that I have an automatic transmission. I was hoping that I could just tie in the factory sunbird ecu/wiring harness and make everything work. One thing that I forgot to mention was that I don't have a distributor! Starting in 92, all 2.0L OHC engines in sunbird came with MPFI and DIS, so no distributor for me! Won't that make it easier? I was at a junkyard today, and found a leganza. The motor was there, but it was missing some things that were essential(like valve cover bolts, some of the hoses were cut, etc.) My biggest beef was the fact that it was TBI(or so it appeared to me) Makes me wonder how I would get the MPFI part of my old ecm to trigger a TBI unit???? I saw in one post on this site about someone using a honda intake manifold or something. Maybe I could find a manifold like that one does, that will already have the MPFI injectors in it and then just splice into them. I think that for now I am going to get a rebuilt sunbird bottom end, but still piece together the woo parts I need to make this work.
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PrecisionBoost
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I have the manuals for both the Leganza (T22SED) and both the NA Sunbird and turbo Sunbird.
I'm looking at the turbo "port" injection diagram it shows a pickup coil attached to the ignition module with four lines feeding back to the ECU.
The white wire is "EST" the purple/white is "reference" the tan/black is "BY-PASS" and the black/red is "Ground"
It looks like the "reference" is the signal coming off the Pickup coild inside the distributor.
When the engine is running (over 400RPM ) the bypass line is triggered by the ECU and the ignition module starts to use the "EST" line from the ECU to change the ignition timing.
The big question is how often the pick-up coil sends a signal back to the ECU throught the "REFERENCE" wire..... is it once per revolution... twice... four times ???
The T22SED uses a reluctor wheel to figure out timing...... I will have to look it up but I think it has 55 teeth.... so it sends back 55 pulses per revolution.....so it's significantly more accurate than the pickup coil in the old sunbird.
It would be possible to make a small electronics package to adapt the reluctor wheel pulses into how ever many pulses the Sunbird's pickup coil sends.
I could probably make one up for less than $100 and it would certainly make things easier.
The adapter would simulate the pickup coil and you would attach it to the "reference" line on the sunbird factory ECU (allows you to retain the use of the stock ECU ignition maps)
Hmmmm...... I was just looking at the diagram and it looks like the Sunbird has a single primary coil...... so I'm guessing the pickup must have four trigger points.
Given there is a 2:1 ratio between the crank and cam I'd have to think the ECU recieves a trigger signal twice per revolution of the crankshaft.
So if the reluctor has 55 triggers you would have it send a pulse to the Sunbird ECU every 22.5 pulses.... which is fairly easy to do with a high degree of accuracy. ( probably better than the factory pickup coil )
As far as the fuel management.... it doesn't use any timing sensors for information ( not 100% sure about this ) so the lack of a distributor shouldn't affect the fuel system.
Any way you cut it all you really need is some type of device to send the "REF" signal back to the ECU..... I wouldn't be surprized if you could find an aftermarket pickup that can be attached to the engine somewhere ( such as to the cam pully )
I'm looking at the turbo "port" injection diagram it shows a pickup coil attached to the ignition module with four lines feeding back to the ECU.
The white wire is "EST" the purple/white is "reference" the tan/black is "BY-PASS" and the black/red is "Ground"
It looks like the "reference" is the signal coming off the Pickup coild inside the distributor.
When the engine is running (over 400RPM ) the bypass line is triggered by the ECU and the ignition module starts to use the "EST" line from the ECU to change the ignition timing.
The big question is how often the pick-up coil sends a signal back to the ECU throught the "REFERENCE" wire..... is it once per revolution... twice... four times ???
The T22SED uses a reluctor wheel to figure out timing...... I will have to look it up but I think it has 55 teeth.... so it sends back 55 pulses per revolution.....so it's significantly more accurate than the pickup coil in the old sunbird.
It would be possible to make a small electronics package to adapt the reluctor wheel pulses into how ever many pulses the Sunbird's pickup coil sends.
I could probably make one up for less than $100 and it would certainly make things easier.
The adapter would simulate the pickup coil and you would attach it to the "reference" line on the sunbird factory ECU (allows you to retain the use of the stock ECU ignition maps)
Hmmmm...... I was just looking at the diagram and it looks like the Sunbird has a single primary coil...... so I'm guessing the pickup must have four trigger points.
Given there is a 2:1 ratio between the crank and cam I'd have to think the ECU recieves a trigger signal twice per revolution of the crankshaft.
So if the reluctor has 55 triggers you would have it send a pulse to the Sunbird ECU every 22.5 pulses.... which is fairly easy to do with a high degree of accuracy. ( probably better than the factory pickup coil )
As far as the fuel management.... it doesn't use any timing sensors for information ( not 100% sure about this ) so the lack of a distributor shouldn't affect the fuel system.
Any way you cut it all you really need is some type of device to send the "REF" signal back to the ECU..... I wouldn't be surprized if you could find an aftermarket pickup that can be attached to the engine somewhere ( such as to the cam pully )
Well, I just had a look at my crappy Haynes manual. It only shows the crank position sensor, and that a signal goes from the crank sensor to the ECU. Then it sendsEST pulses to the DIS module. Also, I do know that the DIS system in the subird uses waste spark, so I don't know if that will complicate anything. With all else being equal, couldn't I just drop in the T22SED, modify the T22SED's trigger wheel, use the sunbird crank sensor, and then find/modify the intake for 4 injectors, and splice them in? It would run the same as the current engine does now, right? I don't think that it will be hard to fool an OBD computer.
I will be using a Honda management for my engine, some custom parts had to be made to make this. I opted for this option because my mechanic has the ability to turn the Honda ECU into a full programable system.
'88 Pontiac Lemans GTE - 2.0 16v XE - fully programable ECU, Custom made intake manifold and other bits.
146.6WHP/135lb.ft - 14.81@94mph
146.6WHP/135lb.ft - 14.81@94mph
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PrecisionBoost
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I wish I had a sunbird manual with DIS....then I could tell you for sure if they have the same number of teeth.
I think the DIS Sunbirds had the same crank as the T20SED.... Tom ( 360 Dynamics ) would know more about this than me since he just finished disassembling his T20SED and he's very familiar with the Sunbird 8V engines.
I think the DIS Sunbirds had the same crank as the T20SED.... Tom ( 360 Dynamics ) would know more about this than me since he just finished disassembling his T20SED and he's very familiar with the Sunbird 8V engines.
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PrecisionBoost
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Ok.... I just pulled out the manual for my Optra....which has the U20SED.
The Reluctor wheel has 58 teeth which are spaced 6 degrees apart.
There is one 12 degree gap and it's called the "reference gap" which is used to syncronize the ECU.
Each of the 58 teeth provide the ECU with cylinder position and the ECU uses this info with the sync pulse (12 deg gap ) to fire the ignition system.
So all you need to do is check the number of teeth on the big metal reluctor wheel on a DIS Sunbird crankshaft.
I have a feeling they are identical but it wouldn't hurt to check.
The Reluctor wheel has 58 teeth which are spaced 6 degrees apart.
There is one 12 degree gap and it's called the "reference gap" which is used to syncronize the ECU.
Each of the 58 teeth provide the ECU with cylinder position and the ECU uses this info with the sync pulse (12 deg gap ) to fire the ignition system.
So all you need to do is check the number of teeth on the big metal reluctor wheel on a DIS Sunbird crankshaft.
I have a feeling they are identical but it wouldn't hurt to check.