question on daewoo radiator design

[KING_3]

Hey guys,
anyone who knows the reason behind the horizontal design of daewoo radiators (i'm assuming all daewoos are like this; correct me if i'm wrong; my ride is an Espero)
i mean, are there advantages on having the radiotor tubes/lines horizontal?
i can only think of disadvantages
- it could easily trap dirt/deposits on the tubes as the water/coolant doesn't flow down as easily and has a long time traveling within the long horizontal tubes
- then the tubes will get easily clogged, making the need to overhaul the radiator
- one more thing i noticed, the outlet of the radiator is placed at the middle height portion, which i think would make water on the lower half stagnant (then being stagnant would be another cause for clogging)

I'm thinking of looking for a shop to fabricate a radiator for me, with vertical lines and then having the outlet at the most bottom part. I'll have it made with brass and not like that with the original which is aluminum/plastic combination. I want it also to have two rows of tubing

Tell me guys if i overlooked something and am making a mistake here. Appreciate all your advice. Many thanks!

[MMamdouh]

putting the radiator in such position allows for a longer tubing than the conventional position thus better cooling... this is appropriate for new design cars were the nose is too slim for aerodynamics and it is kinda hard to put a proper sized radiator vertically

MMamdouh

[broken]

Come to think of it, I dont think ive seen many posts at all about over heating problems with daewoos compared to other cars. personaly I think the design of daewoos radiators is one of the best of any car. Ive never had any problems with my car over heating, compared to other models of cars ive previously owned, Heck! my cooling fans have probably only ever come on about 5 times since ive had the car.

PS. The needle in my temp gauge always sits just below the halfway mark.

[buddha102]

same here, my radiator fans came on like 2x when i was parked during hot summer

i like daewoo but not everyone thinks that

[KING_3]

Thanks for your reply guys

@MM,
Actually i've already thought of that as one of the advantages the water will have a longer time travelling within the radiator so in effect there will be more chance for heat to be released. But don't you think there won't be much difference in cooling with the vertical lines wherein the water stays in the radiator less

But how about the dirt/deposits that might easliy get trapped on the horizontal tubings? This is my number one worry
Also what can you say about the position of the outlet tube (at the middle height)

@broken, buddha,
I think we must also consider what country do we find our daewoo's in, i think most of them are cool countries (that's why the design also includes a cabin heating system)

you're correct on this: we love our daewoo's but most people dont agree hahaha

[Daniel]

Hi,

I think that the center position for outlet was dicted to save production costs. The same radiator is used for manual tranny and for auto tranny with the addition of a heat exchanger in A/T version. This heat exchanger takes about all the lenght of the plastic reservoir and a bottom radiator outlet should have been difficult to design for A/T version.

In the same thinking about production costs, in this rectangular radiator design and for the same cooling surface, horizontal tubes takes less connecting work on vertical sides than vertical tubes on horizontal sides.

Concernig you project of a brass radiator, notice that dissimilar metals can corrode if in contact, even trough water. The "more noble" metal (here brass) will corrode "less noble" metal (aluminium, steel,..)

My 0.02

[KING_3]

@Daniel
you've got a good point there on the production cost. So this means that the design is not based on merely cooling efficiency but on cost efficieny as well. Hence there may be a point to "redesign" the radiator while considering only the cooling aspect

Concernig you project of a brass radiator, notice that dissimilar metals can corrode if in contact, even trough water. The "more noble" metal (here brass) will corrode "less noble" metal (aluminium, steel,..)

Didn't quite get what you mean. Do you mean that i should expect corrosion on parts where the brass radiator comes in contact with the car body, particularly on the radiator mounts?

thanks

[Daniel]

Didn't quite get what you mean. Do you mean that i should expect corrosion on parts where the brass radiator comes in contact with the car body, particularly on the radiator mounts?

That too!
But the most important for me about corrosion is that it can take place inside the circuit aswell. Just ask Google for "galvanic corrosion" ex: http://www.answers.com/topic/galvanic-corrosion-1 . I don't believe you'll get immediate problems but could be so over years.
You can do some experiments by recording voltage between two different metals submerged in tap water.

Here is one between copper and aluminum in tap water.
500mV


30µA (very small current, but small surfaces too!)


But you know, vintage cars were made from copper and cast iron too so...enjoy,

[KING_3]

some nice info you got
i think i can bear with it if the effect will just come out after many years enough time to buy new radiator and engine

[MMamdouh]

@MM,
Actually i've already thought of that as one of the advantages the water will have a longer time travelling within the radiator so in effect there will be more chance for heat to be released. But don't you think there won't be much difference in cooling with the vertical lines wherein the water stays in the radiator less

the radiator is the only part were water loses its heat so the longer it stays their the more heat it can lose... if you got a radator with same dimensions but with vertical water channels you will not lose as much heat but probably will get higher flow rate of water since the restricted passage of coolant through the pipes is much shorter now i guess.

But how about the dirt/deposits that might easliy get trapped on the horizontal tubings? This is my number one worry

it is a concern for sure but i'd say that regular maintenance of your cooling system would include periodic flush process thus reducing the possibility of clogging in addition to using a proper coolant

Also what can you say about the position of the outlet tube (at the middle height)

i have no idea what is the logic behind this position... maybe to allow any deposits that you mentioned earlier to sink into the bottom of the fiber container and below the exit port to prevent the recalculation of dirt into the system once again

MMamdouh

[MMamdouh]

I think we must also consider what country do we find our daewoo's in, i think most of them are cool countries (that's why the design also includes a cabin heating system)

daewoos are available in Egypt and it is way hotter than USA... ambient temps go up to 43C in summer, also daewoos are available in KSA where it gets almost to 50C in summer... no cooling problems whatsoever

temp gauge is always a bit under the middle mark at all times

MMamdouh

[KING_3]

nice discussion

he radiator is the only part were water loses its heat so the longer it stays their the more heat it can lose... if you got a radator with same dimensions but with vertical water channels you will not lose as much heat but probably will get higher flow rate of water since the restricted passage of coolant through the pipes is much shorter now i guess.

one more thought, don't you think the flow rate would be the same since the flow is being dictated by the water pump?

it is a concern for sure but i'd say that regular maintenance of your cooling system would include periodic flush process thus reducing the possibility of clogging in addition to using a proper coolant

diffuculty with regular flushing is that the radiator (or the whole system itself) doesn't have a drain plug
flushing would totally rely on the flush fluid and the flow pressure.

daewoos are available in Egypt and it is way hotter than USA... ambient temps go up to 43C in summer, also daewoos are available in KSA where it gets almost to 50C in summer... no cooling problems whatsoever

temp gauge is always a bit under the middle mark at all times

I see ours is one tough radiator after all

[Daniel]

one more thought, don't you think the flow rate would be the same since the flow is being dictated by the water pump?

I personally don't think so as our water pumps are not constant volume like piston pumps but centrifugal one. Flow from our pump will depend of rotational speed and resistance (restrictions) in the circuit. That's how I feel it.

diffuculty with regular flushing is that the radiator (or the whole system itself) doesn't have a drain plug
totally rely on the flush fluid and the flow pressure.

I've just learned that now! Thanks.
My car has a drain plug but it stays always about 2l of coolant when you think it's empty. Mamdouh wrote a nice How-To about emptying the cooling system.

[Daniel]

Oh man, I can't resist . Still 3 hours before april 2.

This one is a must about radiators http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_pa ... ucts_id=35 .

Also have a look at their cross drilled brake lines .

Have a nice (choose): day, night, morning, noon, evening.

[MMamdouh]

nice discussion

sure thing... it was long since i was into such discussions

one more thought, don't you think the flow rate would be the same since the flow is being dictated by the water pump?

to tell you the truth i am kinda illiterate when it comes to flow rates and pressures and all... i am having trouble comprehending how brake proportional valves work

accordingly i'd say that my humble opinion is that the radiator piping is the most restrictive area in the cooling cycle so the shorter the pipes the less restriction you get and more flow you get... vertical radiators got very long piping... but again... this is from a guy that is not that good with fluid flow and pressure

P.S: if someone got a link to an article that explains the concept of fluid flow and pressure then please send it to me in a PM.

diffuculty with regular flushing is that the radiator (or the whole system itself) doesn't have a drain plug
flushing would totally rely on the flush fluid and the flow pressure.

the radiator does have a drain plug on the cold side reservoir... it is located below the exit port... can also use reverse flow flushing for the radiator for more effective cleanup

I see ours is one tough radiator after all

you should be here in summer time when it is really hot and you can see lots of stranded Lada's and Fiat's with steaming radiators and you are just cruising around in your woo with A/C on and last thing you worry about is engine temp.

MMamdouh