SPA Turbo from Brazil.

kroz123 · Post by **kroz123** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:47 pm

Hey guys,

An auto parts store here just got SPA turbos types T3, T4, T3/T4 and GT25.

I was told that SPA is a company in Brazil that makes Garret turbos, so it must be good.

Well here are my options:

T3 turbine .48/ comp .42 $530 each
T3 turbine .63/ comp .42

or

T3/T4 turbine .48/ comp .50 $600 each
turbine .63/ comp .50

so what do guys suggest?

or wait to go to PR and check a T28 there.

Thanx

gse_turbo · Post by **gse_turbo** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:31 pm

i'm doing a Garrett / Airesearch t3 t4 on my T22SED and i hold the turbo in high regards. i'm also runnig a watercooled center section which some don't like so its all a preference thing. on that turbo you should good for power upto the mid 500's. you should always look for the turbo with the smallest turbine you can get on a T4 for faster spool up.

here are some spec from common turbos on four cylinder engines:
Specs:
-Model: Garrett/Airesearch TB0363 (T3 Series)
-OE Part #: 466672-2
-Compressor Trim: 50
-Turbine Trim: 69
-Compressor Housing a/r: .42
-Turbine Housing a/r: .48
-Oil and Water Cooled
-Recommended applications: 1.5L-2.2L

Garrett

Zikas · Post by **Zikas** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:39 am

gse_turbo wrote:i'm doing a Garrett / Airesearch t3 t4 on my T22SED and i hold the turbo in high regards. i'm also runnig a watercooled center section which some don't like so its all a preference thing. on that turbo you should good for power upto the mid 500's. you should always look for the turbo with the smallest turbine you can get on a T4 for faster spool up.

here are some spec from common turbos on four cylinder engines:
Specs:
-Model: Garrett/Airesearch TB0363 (T3 Series)
-OE Part #: 466672-2
-Compressor Trim: 50
-Turbine Trim: 69
-Compressor Housing a/r: .42
-Turbine Housing a/r: .48
-Oil and Water Cooled
-Recommended applications: 1.5L-2.2L

Garrett

hello guys
I got this turbo installed on my T20SED and it is very good and it kicks in at 2800 RPM so it is the perfect turbo for our 4 cylinders engines

M I N I O N · Post by **M I N I O N** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:22 am

You should really do a compressor map before you throw down that much money for a turbo. You could also probably find a better deal on any one of those turbos if you look around.

kroz123 · Post by **kroz123** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:48 pm

M I N I O N wrote:You should really do a compressor map before you throw down that much money for a turbo. You could also probably find a better deal on any one of those turbos if you look around.

how can you do that? (compressor map)

lanowoo · Post by **lanowoo** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:37 pm

i have thought that yo could..

exist3nce · Post by **exist3nce** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:08 am

rr__kroz123 wrote:
M I N I O N wrote:You should really do a compressor map before you throw down that much money for a turbo. You could also probably find a better deal on any one of those turbos if you look around.
how can you do that? (compressor map)

this link explains it, a good starting tutorial to turbos in general. You should read all three "Turbo Tech Tutorials".

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... enter.html

M I N I O N · Post by **M I N I O N** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:00 pm

http://www.lovehorsepower.com/MR2_Docs/ ... w_maps.htm

This is a better link showing an example of compressor mapping. If you need any help doing the equation just let me know and I will help you with it. While mapping you also want to do a google search and get compressor maps for and turbo in question, then add your engine maps to them to compare. Once you map your engine, you can overlay it to any compressor's map by simply readjusting the scale.

kroz123 · Post by **kroz123** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:20 pm

great find guys, but I really don't have a clue how you can do a comp map.
I read the articles but don't know how.

Please help.

What info do you need MINION to do the map for me?

M I N I O N · Post by **M I N I O N** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:32 pm

I need to know your head configuration, any aftermarket inake manifold or head work, compression ratio, boost level, max rpm, size of the engine... i think that's it.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:25 am

One thing to be noted about the info on the lovehorsepower site..... they are assuming a static VE of 90% which is not accurate.

The VE changes in repsonse to flow levels... at high mass airflow numbers most cylinders ( such as our stock head ) have decreased efficency due to port sizing.

If you have small ports you might get a high VE in the low to mid RPM range with VE dropping like a rock at high RPM (thus higher mass airflow numbers)

It's quite possible that we might only get a VE of 60% or less at 6000 RPM with the stock head.

If you enlargen the ports it will help increase the VE at higher RPM but it will hurt the VE in the midrange... so you will make more peak power but in the end you might end up with a slower vehicle.

Peak power is not what your looking for..... area under the power curve is more important.

Anyways..... here is a decent site with all the compressor maps.... http://www.turbofast.com.au/

You will need Java to make the calculators work....... click on "turbo calculators" in the left side

Then click on "turbo map"

For RPM ranges enter 2500,3500,4500,5500,6500

For boost... choose what ever you want.... say 5psi,7psi,8psi,8psi,8psi

Under VE insert 90%, 92%, 90%,85%,70%

Under compressor efficency... let's just guess for now.... say 70%

Ok... I'm not sure which engine you have....I'm going to use the 2.0L which has an 86mm X 86mm bore/stroke

Since they want it in inches... convert to get 3.39"... so enter this for bore/stroke

obviously add "4" for cylinders

Air temp in Celcius... lets throw that in at 25 degrees

And finally drop in 75% for intercooler efficency.

Then hit "CALC" and you will see the points show up on the compressor map.

Now.... next you hit "next map" and it will allow you to cycle through multiple compressor maps.... anything from a tiny T3 to a huge ass T72

Anyways.... for this configuration the first decent map is the T3 "45" trim with all points in a resonably efficent area of the compressor map.

TO4B's are too large but T04E's are decent.

Anyways.... you can fine tune things by looking on the graph and figuring out the compressor efficency off the map based upon your points and then enter them in the column on the right side.

Fool with the VE and other stuff and you will see how it affects the plot.

Have fun....Chris

M I N I O N · Post by **M I N I O N** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:49 pm

Chris, the formula I posted is a map, that means it is two dimensional. It uses RPM as one of the figures so there is a direct relation from te given VE to the speed of the engine, thus is changes.
Without flow benching the head, there is no way to get an exact VE, but a good guess is not very far off, that is why I was asking about head work.

Post by **PrecisionBoost** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:00 pm

Oh I have no doubt that you know your engine stuff.... you seem to know lots about turbo engines.... I just wanted to bring up the point about VE changing and how the MR2 site might be a little off by using a static VE so that everyone else knows that a simple guess of 90% (or whatever value you might guess) can be very inaccurate depending on which engine you have.

That is part of the reason why I like using the rayhall turbo calculators.... it lets you fool with the numbers and see immediate changes in position of the plots.

I also disagree with the MR2 site using 1/2 of Redline for the spool up.... again... it totally depends on the turbo installed.... with a nice little T25 or small T3 the point at which it hits full boost can be as low as 1/3 of Redline.... or as high as 2/3 of redline if your using a larger TO4E.

So again.... I just want to make sure everyone less experienced knows that it's not as simple as the MR2 site has stated.

I'd hate to see somone plot points using 1/2 redline and find themselves way over the surge line in real life because their calculations were off.

For the T20,T22,U20 series engines.... they have relatively small ports... I've done 20 or 30 dyno pulls with my U20SED... so I'm fairly familiar with the power curve.... which drops like a stone after 5500 RPM..... in reality I have a feeling the small port size is hurting the VE anywhere after 5000 RPM.

It's not a bad cylinder head design..... but it could certainly use some light port work to clean up the first inch of the intake and exhaust ports... I'm sure a nice multiangle valve job would also help.

Anyways....... my whole point is that most compressor plots are a "best guess" scenario...... and use of this rayhall calculator will allow you to fool around with the numbers and see the best and worse case scenario.

M I N I O N · Post by **M I N I O N** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:49 pm

In all honesty, I didn't even read their formula before posting that site, I just ran a quick search for something and figured it couldn't be too far off. There are some flaws in that formula. I have my own formula that I use but it is on paper, not the computer and I didn't feel like typing it.

Once he gives me answers to all of those questions I will run a couple maps off of my formula and see what it comes up with.

kroz123 · Post by **kroz123** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:34 pm

M I N I O N wrote: Once he gives me answers to all of those questions I will run a couple maps off of my formula and see what it comes up with.

hey chris@PrecisionBoost you have an Optra too so help me out here with these question.

Thanx in advance

Arvin

The original daewootech forum

SPA Turbo from Brazil.

SPA Turbo from Brazil.

T3/T4 turbine .48/ comp .50

Re: T3/T4 turbine .48/ comp .50